GTD vs Tornado

[Guest]

OK UK

What's the story? Are these two cars essentially the same? Are there any significant differences in construction, handling, comfort, or ???

I'm talking about in stock trim.
I know they don't stay that way very long with you guys!

Thanks!

MikeD

 

[M.B]

Hello,!

Basic´s are the same i dare to say.
Same type of engine,gearbox,up right etc..
steering rack etc...
Wishbones pretty much the same but differs somewhat in design, pick up points similiar.
Coilover mounting points differs..
Body basicly same with small "personal"differences.
Interior follows same basic line.
Chassis somewhat same construction but design layout different.
Tornado seems to bee a bit "lighter" construction...
Not as rough dimensions...details...
Tornado has had a lot of options for a long time, but i think GTD offered a lot in the last yers too.
Said because i dio not know what kind of sales figures they´ve got now?
Lot of auto parts used are from same suorces.
You can have personal relations and thoughts about these two.
But that does´nt solve anything.
Tornado seems to have been more cost "efficient"!!!!
And the people at Tornado has been more up front with reality, than perhaps better sales managment at GTD.
Of personal experience and talking to others.
Of course smaller details differ between the cars, obviously !
Tornado skipped the in my mind awful wire gearchange mechanism early if they ever did them..
Big improvment.
I think that GTD change theirs at some time too ?
Tornado system with custom bellhousings was a terrific change in several way´s over the adapter...
GTD also got into this option i think.
Wheels are mostly from same sources, as well.
Good quality cars both.
Both offered several gel coat colours on their bodies.
GTD used to change rear position of rear side body clips.
Radiators of similiar design.
Custom built.
Plexi similiar.
Parts many times are quit interchangable, some times need a little trimming thou !
Well, i run out of time now...
Happy hunting !
My pretty accurate point of view...

 

[Ian K]

IIRC, GTD uses larger diameter square tubes for
the frame, Tornado uses smaller diameter
round tubes. OR at least this used to be
the case.

Ian

 

[M.B]

Tornado uses/used square tubing...
with about 4 pieces of round tubes...
Two in the rear frame to hold rear clip etc...
And two.. left and right somewhere in the sides about feet area, in cockpit.
GTD is "heavier" made...

 

[Guest]

This is a difficult thread to reply to if you are an owner of one of these cars. I am a GTD owner and clearly must have a bias towards my own make of car. I also have a bias towards competition which normally means changing the standard spec of the car. However I would point some immediate differences that I am aware of.

I once sold a perspex rear screen from my car to a tornado owner. He asked me to take it back as it didn't fit. Therefore there are subtle differences in shape that may not necessarily be obvious on a casual inspection. I would always be wary about inter changing parts between any make of replica. Check and double check before you do it.

Otherwise the aim of all replica's is to look like the GT40. Both cars do this satisfactorily although if you put the cars up to an original there are differences that can be spotted. However how many of the original cars are identical?

Cabin wise, these cars are as comfortable as you care to make them. Basic layout is again similar. The main difference that COULD be out there is in the width at the bottom of the footwell. The GTD is tight(ish). I have not heard that the tornado is much different in that regard. Certainly I wear race boots to drive my car anywhere so I don't catch the wrong pedal on the side of my foot. That is using the standard pedal box. However the new GTD factory owners have redesigned this part of the chassis and claim more space in the footwells.

Taking us on to chassis differences. The chassis are different. Both made in the same concept but with different solutions to the same problem normally means some close similarities. The new GTD chassis is different to the old GTD chassis which is different to the Tornado chassis. All differences make a difference. To compare these where it matters is to drive the cars over the same test. This leads to competition, which leads us to modifying the cars which leads us away from standard trim.

However I know of plenty of GTD's used on tracks all over the world. Serious racing to hill climbing and sprinting (what I like to do) and then just fun track days. Only in this later category have I seen tornados used. I stand to be corrected but I have never heard of let alone seen a tornado in competition. A couple of KVAs but no tornados yet. Does this evidence imply that the GTD is more capable in that regard?

Overall there are about 400 GTD out there. Tornado came to the market later than GTD. I do not know how many tornado chassis are out there, perhaps someone else can say.

Standard trim implies road use as the main use of the car. You pays your money and takes your choice.

For more serious usage and competition I would recommend a GTD. It is a proven product.

To build from new now, I wouldn't do either. I am not prepared to go through our SVA test with any GT40 replica. It can be done but I have moved on in my car preferences to too much racing influence. Now that Porsche 917K replica from Australia looks good.

If you have no replica 40 now but want one, my suggestion is that you buy a completed and already registered GTD. They are currently excellent value for money. In standard trim they can be well less than £20,000 and low mileage even though up to 10 years old. To build a good quality kit now with the right parts will cost you more than that. Then I would strip it down and rebuild it to my spec, upgrading primarily brakes and dampers. Engines are always to the owners choice so change that as required. However I run a mild 302 (Gordon Levy told me so, you know!

) but I still hold my own on track.

By doing this you can save money, get a good car and have fun that little bit quicker.

Here's hoping a tornado owner comes back and puts their side of things forward. Ian, any comments?

Hope this is of help

Malcolm

 

Hi all

I understand that Robert Logan developed the RF from his original UK Tornado!!!
I would hazard a guess that he was originally attracted to the quality of the Tornado body and the size of the foot wells especially in the peddle box area which seems to be retained in the RF.
I would say Robert’s comments on this topic would be interesting as we know that RF’s find their way onto the track.

Chris
The Tornado chassis www.tornadosportscars.com

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Chris Melia ]

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Chris Melia ]

 

[M.B]

Hello, !

Like Malcolm say´s, he´s a GTD bowner...
Don´t know about the "new" GTD chassis.
But the old one was also heavy and heavily built, of no advantages except weight panalty.
Bodies comes from the same origin, except GTD has altered their´s a bit in some places..
The very small differences comes to the fact of massive copying and wear of moulds as well as making new ones.
The longer from original, the more incorrect.
And if your car allready is massivly changed in many areas, it´s no longer the original product.
Tornado has sold many chassis, how many i do not know.
Andrew sheldon must know.(Tornado)
Of course the chassis are different.
If you place the first part differently on the fixture, the whole ends up differently...sort of !
But Basicly they are about the same.
Same sort of parts, same sort of meassures and same sort of material used, makes a somewhat similiar car !
If you have similiar rigidy and critical areas, well...
Ones panelled there are not to much to differ also.
I am in no favour to any, because i believe they both are a good piece of machinery on their own.
But GTD has pulled a lot of crap to customers and magazines.
Wich would help to raise the level of enthusiasm for their product.
Tornado may not have been advertising much at all, but they´ve been quit upfront and honest wich i personally think is important to me, if i were to buy...
Anyway the cars are what´s important.
They are basicly quit similiar good engineered GT40 kits.
With their better and worser details compared to each other.
My own ideas, but pretty close to the truth..

 

[Robert Logan]

I bought my first GT40 replica from Tornado. I purchased it without seeing it and this was my first mistake. I had read a series of articles from UK magazines of the new Tornado, I had talked to Ken Saunders about the car and I had also seen a small piece in the Fortification magazine ( GT40 club mag ).

I was working in Australia at the time and had a little difficulty in actually looking at the various cars that were available and as I wanted the car there ready for me when I returned to the UK I had to order it some time before, the real mistake.

That all said I ordered the Tornado and built her and I hope I did a reasonable job. The trouble started when I started to compete with her. The front lower wishbones bent and when I contacted Tornado this was news to them even though I had discussed the same problems with at least 4 other owners. The top shocker mounts tore and again this was news to Tornado. I repaired the problems but the thing that realy annoyed me was the way that I was cast aside by the owner of Tornado and even lied to.

I decided to build my own car and bought a GTD and a KVA to evaluate. I also looked over an ERA which was here in Australia being converted into a REAL monocoque (but that is another story).

I designed my own chassis and this shares a lot of similarities with all the different cars as well as many other race cars. I was helped by my good friend Ross Holder who is one of the most respected race car engineers in Australia and rightfully so. I aquired a set of original suspension drawings of the GT40 and Ross and myself (to a much lesser degree) designed the rest of the car. We developed the car from scratch and I hope with little compromise. I have a dedicated staff that have many years of race car experience at the highest levels here in Australia and a collection of contractors who nearly all still work in or around the V8 racing industry here in Australia.

I firmly believe that the GT40 replica can still beat those Porsches (wash out my mouth) and we are working tirelessly to reach that goal.

As regards to which is better between the GTD and the Tornado they are two completely different animals. I built my first car as a "cappacino collector" with no intention of going racing. I unfortunately got dragged to Castle Combe by my best mate Ken Saunders and I was hooked. I wanted to go racing and as the ability of me as a driver got better and it is still very average, the car had to also get better, so I built my own.

The race record in the UK between the GTD and the Tornado has the GTD way out in front and this is largely due to Ray Christopher who realy does know what he is doing. I still have a smile on my face every time I remember his milk float drag car. Tornado is a good road car but has restricted wheel travel and the company has a severe lack of transparancy.

The reason that I was and am HIGHLY involved with this forum is exactly because of the way I was delt with by Tornado. I believe that the Kit Car industry in general has a terible reputation which is deserves, but I also believe that the manufacturers that contribute on a regular basis here are some of the most reputable in the business.

If I had my time again I would have done the same because my personality was set at childhood and I could not have acted differently. If I knew then what I know now I would have chosen differently and I hope that this forum gives those more patient that I am a much better understanding of the choise that is available.

Beest wishes,

Robert

 

[M.B]

They all have to be altered if going for racing...
Never heard of anybody having that sort of problems with Tornado before.
Wish bones yes, but....
GTD on the other hand has been telling storys that is just un believable !
Much of the crap in the business started there...
Up front, and honesty is what should count.
Instead of doing everything to be able to sell, no matter what !

 

[M.B]

Like i wrote on a earlier post, the coil overs have different mounting points.
Being straight forward.
I agree with Robert.
There´s you big difference.
GTD a better one...
(Did now if i should bering it up.
As i do not wish anybody getting upset.
I am only in it for the facts.Nothing else.)
At least under heavy loads.
But all cars have their development problems, wich need to be straightened out..
But i also know that Tornado changed their wishbones for a few customers...
Did think that he met all complaints the same way. in general.
In basic, they are still pretty same in construction, wich was the topic.

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Comparing these cars for the novice can be most frustrating. If you know and understand what the purpose of your car will be then you can make a better decision.
I personally wanted a car that was as compfortable on the street as it is on the track. I believe that Robert has accomplished this through a better designed chassis.You have to see it to believe it. As stated in another post Robert's chassis has an impressive number on the deflection and twisting test than the others. As you build this car you can see where there was great pains taken in aquiring rigidity, yet maintain an abundance of room for the passenger and driver.
I am not a trained engineer but I have built nine cars and I learn something new from every one that I build. I may not understand certain geometries but I do know when something is well built with purpose
and not convienance. I for one am happy that someone like Robert Logan has tackled a monumental task of building his own car.
You will have to go a long way to better his accomplishment. Everyday I work on this car I'm thankful I made the choice to build the RF.
I know this sounds like a commercial for RF but when I like something or someone I like to spread the word. Dealing with people like Robert Logan is what will help the kit car industry move into a brighter light.
All that I have said is my own opinion and when you are treated fairly then I feel others should know. If and when I ever find a problem with my car, Robert will be the first to know, then anyone else that cares to listen.

Thanks Robert,

Hersh

 

[Guest]

Thanks for all the input guys.

My interpretation is that the differences
between these two excellent replicas are not very large for street use, which is what I meant by specifying "stock" trim.

For track work I certainly expected the
base kits to need "upgrades", and upgrades
can cost as much money as you want to spend.

Robert's point that the RF is designed with
additional racing capability is a good one,
and reminds me that the intended usage must
be well defined to prevent "disappointment".

Thanks again.

MikeD

 

Is there a big difference in price between these cars?

Doug

 

[Guest]

Doug

I've not seen pricing on GTD kits lately,
and as far as I know they don't advertise pricing on their website. Mark Sibley
also markets GTD-like kits, but again,
I've not seen pricing.

My GUESS is that the pricing would be similar
to Tornado,which makes a nice car and by all
accounts, Andy is very good to work with.

There is a lot more aftermarket support in the UK for GTD based cars than for Tornado.
For whatever reason (Ray Christopher?) it seems more folks with GTD's race their cars than Tornado.

If I were going to import a car into the
US from the UK, and most of the usage would be street driven, I think I'd choose Tornado simply because of Andy Sheldon's service and the proven stability of his company.

However, now that RF offers to sell their
kit in stages, and with John Hester's kit
coming to market soon, and with two of Phil
Ware's kits coming into the US, there are a
LOT more options than just two years ago,
for those of us who cannot afford ERA.

MikeD

 

Am I seeing correctly that the Tornado has top spring mounts with little lateral support?
Costin and Phipps would turn blue!
(They wrote was was the bible of racing and sports car design back in 1961!)
???

Rob

 

[Guest]

Am I seeing correctly that you've made rather critical remarks about ERA, CAV, and now Tornado on this forum? Why yes, yes I have!

Tom T.

 

[Guest]

Mr. Lawrence,

Please accept my apology; I had the wrong person in mind. Again, I apologize.

Tom T.

 

[Guest]

I’m planning to visit GTD Supercars in July this year.
I see forward to see all the new parts.
Hopefully I will take some pictures and have some info that I can put in this Forum.

Anything special that you guys like me to look at?

Poul Stromberg

Sweden