High Altitude Engine Choice

Can someone explain what is meant by "favorable rod ratio" and what makes one combination good and another bad?

Thank you

I'll try to explain it as well as I can without getting into the old "theoretical gains vs actual gains" argument. For the sake of this thread, I don't want it to spiral into a rod/ratio back and forth thread as seems to be so common on the internet.

Rod/Stroke ratio is the ratio of the rod length to stroke distance (or crankshaft throw). By simple geometry, one can find throughout the stroke of the piston, the higher the rod/stroke ratio is, the longer the piston spends at the top and bottom of the stroke (because, at the top of the stroke, and the bottom of the stroke, the piston velocity is zero, and the maximum piston velocity occurs with the crankshaft at an angle of 90 degrees taken from a line drawn from the center of the bore to the center of the crankshaft).

The longer the piston spends at the top and bottom of the cylinder, the longer the incoming/exhausting air has to fill the chamber or escape the chamber. If it helps, picture this cycle in slow motion (oversimplifying). The piston is at a fairly uniform pressure at the bottom of the stroke, and as the piston pushes upwards with the open valve, the air compresses (it has inertia) and begins to flow out of the chamber due to a pressure differential between the chamber and the exhaust headers. As it pushes upwards, the air begins to move with the piston. As the piston reaches it's peak velocity, it starts to slow down. Well the air doesn't want to slow down (again, due to inertia) so it wants to continue leaving the chamber. The longer the piston is at (or near) the top of the chamber, the longer the momentum of the air will carry the exhausted charge out of the chamber. The same thing happens during the intake charge, just in reverse (and at bottom dead center).

This yields better cylinder filling (higher volumetric efficiency) and better cylinder scavenging (less spent exhaust mixed with the fresh air and fuel) leading to more power.

Now, if you look at this from a statics/dynamics point of view, the other issue begins to arise: cylinder side-wall loading. We know that the frictional force is equal to the normal force (perpendicular to the chamber wall) multiplied by the coefficient of friction,. The higher the side load, the higher stress in the cylinder walls, and the higher the friction (parasitic losses converted directly to heat, and robbing power). We can see that as the stroke increases and the rod decreases (or one or the other), the normal force placed against the cylinder walls rises. The higher normal force, of course, generates more friction, more cylinder wall stresses, potentially premature cylinder wall wear, etc.

Lastly, since the conrod transfers the forces on top of the piston to the crankshaft to do useful work, and we know that a moment is greatest at it's farthest perpendicular distance, we can see that we ideally would want the rod to be perpendicular to the crank at all times. Since this is impossible, we go for the next best solution: getting it as close as we can. Now, what I'm going to say here I'm not 100% sure of (it's late and I should be sleeping), but the longer the rod, the more time it spends closest to perpendicular to the crankshaft, yielding a better moment arm (with the same force on top of the piston), which of course, yields more torque (and therefore, more horsepower).

So, how much of this actually contributes to power loss/gains, wear/longevity, etc, I can't say quantitatively. Just that guidelines usually recommend the highest rod/stroke ratio you can reasonably achieve. The higher the better, and the more theoretical torque you'll generate.

To anyone who wants to respond to my post here, please avoid conjecture. Please just treat my post as mathematical and not "how much of a real world difference does it really make". If any of my words are incorrect, please feel free to point them out.

Hope that helps.
 
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I've been driving my Cobra in and around the Denver area (5k to 14k ft) for several years. What works out here first and foremost is EFI. That alone will give you instant response at most any elevation in Colorado. That equates to an 'explosive' feel when you drop the hammer, while the carburated car ahead or behind you is still trying to clear its throat and spewing exhaust smoke.

I completely agree with you. I have no interest in using a carburetor. My plan at the moment is to megasquirt the motor.

BTW, a 331 would be a great compromise if you want to go 302 based. Check out the new Boss block and go large bore!

For cost reasons, I'm going to be sticking with a stock block, so no aftermarket blocks.

Since you're not considering a turbo or supercharge then I'd opt for a few more cubic inches vs going with a strictly high-revving motor. You'd be left behind at the stop light while you're trying to modulate the clutch, revs, and wheelspin, till you get your 'revs' up. This is where the higher torque motor rules in this thin air. Revving a motor under load to redline at 8000 ft feels like it takes forever vs trying to do the same in lower elevations. Besides who drives in traffic revving past 8k (besides a Rotary or crotch rocket). It's fun (and intimidating for the other driver) when you leave the high-revving/low torque cars behind at the stoplight without much effort or in another case, when you're coming out of every sharp corner in the mountains. It also attracts less attention from the cops.

Well, as I stated in an earlier post, I'd prefer it to "feel" fast rather than actually being fast (although if it's fast as well, I won't complain). From what it sounds like you are saying is to basically forget the idea of a 302 based engine and go straight for the 400+ cu-in 351W based engine.

It's great to hear from someone who has experience directly in the area I'll be driving it. I'm actually up in Wyoming, but the Wyoming/Snowy Mountains/Northern Colorado/Denver area is where it'll be spending it's time. Sounds like the 351W is the way to go.

Just my experience from driving different types of cars at altitude....

If you have any more advice, I'm all ears. Thanks again!
 
I'll try to explain it as well as I can without getting into the old "theoretical gains vs actual gains" argument. For the sake of this thread, I don't want it to spiral into a rod/ratio back and forth thread as seems to be so common on the internet.

Rod/Stroke ratio is the ratio of the rod length to stroke distance (or crankshaft throw). By simple geometry, one can find throughout the stroke of the piston, the higher the rod/stroke ratio is, the longer the piston spends at the top and bottom of the stroke (because, at the top of the stroke, and the bottom of the stroke, the piston velocity is zero, and the maximum piston velocity occurs with the crankshaft at an angle of 90 degrees taken from a line drawn from the center of the bore to the center of the crankshaft).

The longer the piston spends at the top and bottom of the cylinder, the longer the incoming/exhausting air has to fill the chamber or escape the chamber. If it helps, picture this cycle in slow motion (oversimplifying). The piston is at a fairly uniform pressure at the bottom of the stroke, and as the piston pushes upwards with the open valve, the air compresses (it has inertia) and begins to flow out of the chamber due to a pressure differential between the chamber and the exhaust headers. As it pushes upwards, the air begins to move with the piston. As the piston reaches it's peak velocity, it starts to slow down. Well the air doesn't want to slow down (again, due to inertia) so it wants to continue leaving the chamber. The longer the piston is at (or near) the top of the chamber, the longer the momentum of the air will carry the exhausted charge out of the chamber. The same thing happens during the intake charge, just in reverse (and at bottom dead center).

This yields better cylinder filling (higher volumetric efficiency) and better cylinder scavenging (less spent exhaust mixed with the fresh air and fuel) leading to more power.

Now, if you look at this from a statics/dynamics point of view, the other issue begins to arise: cylinder side-wall loading. We know that the frictional force is equal to the normal force (perpendicular to the chamber wall) multiplied by the coefficient of friction,. The higher the side load, the higher stress in the cylinder walls, and the higher the friction (parasitic losses converted directly to heat, and robbing power). We can see that as the stroke increases and the rod decreases (or one or the other), the normal force placed against the cylinder walls rises. The higher normal force, of course, generates more friction, more cylinder wall stresses, potentially premature cylinder wall wear, etc.

Lastly, since the conrod transfers the forces on top of the piston to the crankshaft to do useful work, and we know that a moment is greatest at it's farthest perpendicular distance, we can see that we ideally would want the rod to be perpendicular to the crank at all times. Since this is impossible, we go for the next best solution: getting it as close as we can. Now, what I'm going to say here I'm not 100% sure of (it's late and I should be sleeping), but the longer the rod, the more time it spends closest to perpendicular to the crankshaft, yielding a better moment arm (with the same force on top of the piston), which of course, yields more torque (and therefore, more horsepower).

So, how much of this actually contributes to power loss/gains, wear/longevity, etc, I can't say quantitatively. Just that guidelines usually recommend the highest rod/stroke ratio you can reasonably achieve. The higher the better, and the more theoretical torque you'll generate.

To anyone who wants to respond to my post here, please avoid conjecture. Please just treat my post as mathematical and not "how much of a real world difference does it really make". If any of my words are incorrect, please feel free to point them out.

Hope that helps.

Echo, super good summary, I think you're exactly correct (to the best of my smarts), however on your last point ie. "spending more time perpendicular to the crankshaft" I wouldn't quite agree with that. I think the longer stroke engine gives more torque because the lever arm (the rod) it's working on is longer ("stroked" rod) thus more rotational force is generated. That's just my $.02 and I'm no physicist, but that seems to make sense to me.
 
Echo, super good summary, I think you're exactly correct (to the best of my smarts), however on your last point ie. "spending more time perpendicular to the crankshaft" I wouldn't quite agree with that. I think the longer stroke engine gives more torque because the lever arm (the rod) it's working on is longer ("stroked" rod) thus more rotational force is generated. That's just my $.02 and I'm no physicist, but that seems to make sense to me.

Well, I haven't run the numbers or seen it in motion, so I could be wrong on that part. I just vaguely remember that with the same stroke, but longer rods, the arm stays closer to perpendicular. You're absolutely right about the longer stroke, I was just trying to remember the rod ratio bit.

If I have time later today, I'll try to run the numbers and let you guys know what I find.
 

Mike Pass

Supporter
If you have a big stroke and a short rod then the angle of the rod gets very large which causes the piston to be pushed hard sideways into the bore wall. The max angle of the rod is determined by the stroke and the rod length - the greater the stroke and the shorter the rod the worse the sideways push will be. So the sideways push is determined by the ratio or relative lengths of the stroke and the rod length. Long rod and short stroke helps to reduce side thrust on the bore wall.
Cheers
Mike
 
If I have time later today, I'll try to run the numbers and let you guys know what I find.

I reran the numbers and the rod length appears to have no effect on the torque generated, from a purely geometric standpoint. The moments created by the same force on the top of the piston are the same. This of course, neglects frictional sidewall effects, piston dwell, etc.
 
Echo,

If cost is a factor, you are better off going with the factory-based EFI...there is no way you can MegaSquirt an engine less expensively than adapting a 302/351 EFI setup to your chosen engine. Not to mention, unless you are dearly familiar with programming and integrating the various electronics into a MegaSquirt setup, it is an absolute lesson in frustration. Great for tinkering, not for plug & play driveability.

PS What part of Wyoming are you in? I live in Casper.

I completely agree with you. I have no interest in using a carburetor. My plan at the moment is to megasquirt the motor.

For cost reasons, I'm going to be sticking with a stock block, so no aftermarket blocks.

Well, as I stated in an earlier post, I'd prefer it to "feel" fast rather than actually being fast (although if it's fast as well, I won't complain). From what it sounds like you are saying is to basically forget the idea of a 302 based engine and go straight for the 400+ cu-in 351W based engine.

It's great to hear from someone who has experience directly in the area I'll be driving it. I'm actually up in Wyoming, but the Wyoming/Snowy Mountains/Northern Colorado/Denver area is where it'll be spending it's time. Sounds like the 351W is the way to go.

If you have any more advice, I'm all ears. Thanks again!
 
I completely agree with you. I have no interest in using a carburetor. My plan at the moment is to megasquirt the motor.

Well, as I stated in an earlier post, I'd prefer it to "feel" fast rather than actually being fast (although if it's fast as well, I won't complain). From what it sounds like you are saying is to basically forget the idea of a 302 based engine and go straight for the 400+ cu-in 351W based engine.

It's great to hear from someone who has experience directly in the area I'll be driving it. I'm actually up in Wyoming, but the Wyoming/Snowy Mountains/Northern Colorado/Denver area is where it'll be spending it's time. Sounds like the 351W is the way to go.

Echo,
Our Cobra Club heads up to Saratoga every year and spends a couple of days driving in and around the Snowy Range. Beautiful roads, with little or no traffic (or cops). Cars do get a little 'soft' up there no matter what kinda HP numbers you're putting out.

If you can handle a little more weight (~50lbs) then go with 351 based. If you like to tinker try the Megasquirt but keep the factory EFI and harness installed in case you have to limp home from the middle of nowhere. A friend of mine loves his Megasquirt in his 930 Turbo, but he's an engineer and loves to tinker with electronics and EFI.

The 418 (351) in my GT puts out HP and Torque numbers in the low 500's, (carb'd) so at this elevation if I can get 350 -375 to the rear wheels, I'll be happy. Once the car gets sorted out with the carb, I'm switching to an EFI stack setup asap.
 
Echo,

If cost is a factor, you are better off going with the factory-based EFI...there is no way you can MegaSquirt an engine less expensively than adapting a 302/351 EFI setup to your chosen engine. Not to mention, unless you are dearly familiar with programming and integrating the various electronics into a MegaSquirt setup, it is an absolute lesson in frustration. Great for tinkering, not for plug & play driveability.

PS What part of Wyoming are you in? I live in Casper.

Hmm, interesting advice. My reasoning for the MegaSquirt was simply for tune-ability. As you know, we have no sniffer tests here, and I don't want my engine bogged down by emissions garbage. I want to tune it for all out performance (and drive-ability). Can the factory EFI systems offer that?

I'm in Laramie at the moment. Working towards my undergraduate (and after, hopefully masters and perhaps a doctoral) degree in Mechanical Engineering. After I graduate, I hope to be able to move deeper into Wyoming, but we'll see how that goes. Out of curiosity, do you have a GT40 of your own?
 
The mid 90s EFI is very tunable (as I am sure more than one WyoTech instructor or student could demonstrate) and other than O2 sensors, no real emissions feed-back is used by these setups. I don't believe you need to have the EGR ports functioning, as these are mostly used to boost reduction (oxymoronic, I know) of nitrogen oxides before they hit the catalysts.

Good to meet a fellow Cowboy on here :D

I do not have a GT40, or any other kit. I have been looking at an FFR GTM though. My current project is a LS4/F40 Fiero (transverse FWD V8/6speed transaxle). My prior experiences with MegaSquirt were less than satisfactory, due to the need for constant tuning (unless you have a VERY complete stoichiometric map, etc) that is why I felt compelled to say my piece.

Hmm, interesting advice. My reasoning for the MegaSquirt was simply for tune-ability. As you know, we have no sniffer tests here, and I don't want my engine bogged down by emissions garbage. I want to tune it for all out performance (and drive-ability). Can the factory EFI systems offer that?

I'm in Laramie at the moment. Working towards my undergraduate (and after, hopefully masters and perhaps a doctoral) degree in Mechanical Engineering. After I graduate, I hope to be able to move deeper into Wyoming, but we'll see how that goes. Out of curiosity, do you have a GT40 of your own?
 
Echo,
Our Cobra Club heads up to Saratoga every year and spends a couple of days driving in and around the Snowy Range. Beautiful roads, with little or no traffic (or cops).

Oh, I didn't realize that was your group. I've seen you guys come through here (Laramie). Always gets my attention :).

Honestly, my two favorite roads that I've ever driven on are Hwy-230 and Hwy-130. Another one of my favorite roads out there is a side road called Barber Lake road. It's off 130 on the way to centennial and basically is just a long section of twisty roads that are absolutely a blast to drive on. If you guys are looking for a fun road to take on your way to Saratoga, barber lake road is it. It's a relatively slow road, but lots of fun corners and beautiful views. Also, I can't recall the last time I've seen a cop out there.. ;).

If you can handle a little more weight (~50lbs) then go with 351 based. If you like to tinker try the Megasquirt but keep the factory EFI and harness installed in case you have to limp home from the middle of nowhere. A friend of mine loves his Megasquirt in his 930 Turbo, but he's an engineer and loves to tinker with electronics and EFI.
If the factory EFI can do what I need it to do, I have no problem keeping it. Just from my limited experience with EFI systems (modern stuff) is that they are just a bear to tune and bogged down by emissions stuff. From what Wyoming was saying, it appears that the early EFI will do what I need it to.

Cars do get a little 'soft' up there no matter what kinda HP numbers you're putting out.

The 418 (351) in my GT puts out HP and Torque numbers in the low 500's, (carb'd) so at this elevation if I can get 350 -375 to the rear wheels, I'll be happy. Once the car gets sorted out with the carb, I'm switching to an EFI stack setup asap.

This is the dilemma that I've been facing. With every engine getting "soft" up here (and I believe it's deeper than just a 20% loss in power.. I believe it affects throttle response, air flow into the engine (with a density change, the air behaves differently)), I'm trying to figure out what will give the best solution. Since it's not simply a power issue, will the lighter rotating mass and lighter weight of the 347 be better, or will the heavier weight and rotating mass be better? Raising the compression ratio of both engines should help, but if I take it to lower elevations, I'll need race gas.
 
The mid 90s EFI is very tunable (as I am sure more than one WyoTech instructor or student could demonstrate) and other than O2 sensors, no real emissions feed-back is used by these setups. I don't believe you need to have the EGR ports functioning, as these are mostly used to boost reduction (oxymoronic, I know) of nitrogen oxides before they hit the catalysts.

Well that's good to know. Like I mentioned above, if the factory EFI does what I need it to do, I have no problem running it.

Good to meet a fellow Cowboy on here :D

Did you go to UW as well, or did you mean Cowboy in a general Wyoming sense? Either way, great to meet you too :).

I do not have a GT40, or any other kit. I have been looking at an FFR GTM though. My current project is a LS4/F40 Fiero (transverse FWD V8/6speed transaxle). My prior experiences with MegaSquirt were less than satisfactory, due to the need for constant tuning (unless you have a VERY complete stoichiometric map, etc) that is why I felt compelled to say my piece.

I really appreciate the advice. I've never used MegaSquirt before, I've just heard good things about it (although mostly from people running some sort of boosted engine). I most definitely don't have a complete stoichiometric map, and although I like tuning, I don't want to be doing it on a daily basis :).

I'll be that Fiero is a fun car to drive around in :D.
 
Between aftermarket manifolds and throttle bodies (everything from single-plane/dual-plane carburetor style and carb-base layout TBs, ITBs and manifolds, to BBK or Edelbrock factory style uppers, lowers and TBs) there is bound to be the hardware you need, and the factory ECU can have the EPROMS reflashed for a fairly affordable price.

I was once a Cowboy, majored in Business Administration, before dropping out to work for a classmate when he started his company. Can't say as I really enjoyed school, but that has alot to do with my own personal learning style (educational curriculum is geared toward common denominator processing, not individual ability or needs...enough said).

The turbo guys seem to be inherent tuners/tweekers anyways. Alot of bang for the buck, if you have the patience and resources to build a very complete fuel map, spark curve parameters, etc. Way too much development for my taste. One thing that would be a very beneficial option would be if someone could develop some programming for different "levels" of base tune for the MegaSquirt. Seems to me that it would be well worth an $250-500 option!

And yes, my Fiero is exciting to drive. As soon as I get the suspension dialed in, it will actually be fun too :D


Well that's good to know. Like I mentioned above, if the factory EFI does what I need it to do, I have no problem running it.

Did you go to UW as well, or did you mean Cowboy in a general Wyoming sense? Either way, great to meet you too :).

I really appreciate the advice. I've never used MegaSquirt before, I've just heard good things about it (although mostly from people running some sort of boosted engine). I most definitely don't have a complete stoichiometric map, and although I like tuning, I don't want to be doing it on a daily basis :).

I'll be that Fiero is a fun car to drive around in :D.
 
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