Is the right to bear arms outdated.

Jim - you keep bringing up that chart but it doesn't say where or under what situations these crimes were committed. I am NOT defending assault weapons or high count magazines or anything else. I AM a gun owner who hopes to pass from this life having never to take the safety off or draw it from the holster. As a combat veteran, I have had the ethically and morally difficult choice of having to take human lives thrust upon me. I know what it means to kill a human being and it haunts me everyday....... but we are talking about gun users with no conscience, no moral code or , in these cases, mental states so far off base that they no longer have the ability to differentiate morally or ethically correct behavior. Fanatics are, by and large, unstoppable. In these recent cases the main cause is the lack of recognizing the potential for violence in the would be aggressor. A secondary cause is irresponsible care by the gun owner, i.e., unsecured weapons, not the legal purchase of the gun.
Your 'chart' fails to take into account the extremely high gun related crime in cities with high drug traffic. These crimes are committed by thugs who don't care one bit about whether the gun is legal, who they robbed or killed to get it, or who they kill with it. It is simply a business tool. Face it, the criminals don't give a shit about ANY laws, gun or anything else - that's why they're criminals. I was brought up in one of these neighborhoods in case you were wondering if I was talking without benefit of first-hand experience. Thank God for the oppotunity to leave. The murder rate is disproportionate to the suburbs or rural areas. Your 'chart' would have everyone believe the entiire U.S. is just one blazing hotbed of gun violence. I know you do not intend to present it as such, but you have to admit the drug trade in the inner cities breeds most of this statistical result. There are so many illegal guns in these areas it would be years and years before law enforcement could make a dent in the numbers on the street. Can the rest of us wait that long for the playing field to be leveled? Again, look at Chicago and the rest of Illinois - did the prohibition of handguns there eliminate any gun violence - answer is a fat NO, it's worse than anywhere else. And why isn't the rate of such crime much higher in a state like Vermont where no license is required and open carry is the rule, than it is in Illinois? How does that fit into your chart? Please look at realistic solutions to this problem. Yes, we need to recognize someone's potential for extreme violence and take the necessary steps, always a difficult call. No, we don't need 30 round clips for our hunting rifles or handguns. Yes, we need a standardized, equal set of requirements to own a handgun. Yes, certain assault weapons, those with extreme capacity, should be reviewed for legality. But NO, eliminating all private ownership will not make this problem go away. None of this will bring back any of the 26 children and adults in Newton,CT but well thought-out solutions wil go a long way toward eliminating the 'Next" time. Finally - Jim, I am not disagreeing with you that something has to be done. I respect your opinion and willingness to find answers and solutions.

Very nicely put. This also reveals the disingenuous nature of the lefts arguments on the topic.

Though, I disagree with your stance on "assault" weapons. If you can tell me the difference between an "assault" weapon and a "normal" gun, I would be happy to hear what it is.
 
Lets start with 50 plus yrs in prison for committing a crime with a gun....
won't save any immediate lives but it will take ONE gun from ONE criminal for 50yrs.

We just had democrat state senator Donne Trotter try to take a gun on a plane. Does he get 50 years?

I hope your not proposing a zero tolerance policy...
 
We just had democrat state senator Donne Trotter try to take a gun on a plane. Does he get 50 years?

I hope your not proposing a zero tolerance policy...
Ok I'll make one exception for yet another hypocritical democrat......75yrs:)
 
I find it strange that the Newtown shooters mother had no clue that her son was disturbed, enough so that he shot her in the head 4 times. I also find it strange that knowing this (and she had to know) that she didn't have the weapons locked up. How many school psycologists, doctors, counselors, teachers and others had warnings that they disregarded and did nothing about. Given the rage of this kid he probably would have killed his mother with something that morning had not the guns been present. Everyone seems to forget that humans were doing a fine job of killing one another prior to the invention of firearms.
 
Very well stated Al, thanks!
I'm an OWG as some would put it, with way too many years "in the field". I totally agree with what you said excepting high capacity magazines. Do we need them, no.
Should we have the choice, yes. I can reload much faster than most folks can think, and limiting capacity has little or nothing to do with the effectiveness of gun control.
This will be my last post on this subject.
 
I was going to ignore these threads but I can't. Lord help me.

Let's look at the basic facts. A person intent on doing evil WILL do evil regardless of the method used.

My (now ex) mother-in-law's brother was murdered by a person who was determined to kill someone (he admitted it in court). He jumped Gibbons, knocked him down and kept smashing his head against a parking curb crushing his skull.

Fact parking curbs were designed to assist in parking vehicles and were not designed to be used as a weapon, but a sick, evil person misused it as such. Nobody goes around talking about parking curb weapons.

Fact is a gun is designed to shoot a projectile. It's how the firearm is used.

Fact, firearms are just that firearms. None of of my FIREARMS has ever been used as a weapon, therefore, please don't mislabel them as such.

Fact is that many people are injured or killed each year by recklessly used vehicles. My ex-wife rear ended 3 people in 7 months from recklessness. Anyone can get a car and use it as a weapon. The limits how fast we can drive, and yet everyone of us has broken a speed limit at least once in our lives. Anyone who drives and denies that is a liar. It might only be 1-2 mph, but you HAVE misused your car.

Fact is, law abiding citizens who own guns are not the problem. Criminals are the problem. Criminals are criminals because they ignore laws. It doesn't matter if they ignore one law or fifty, they are still criminals.

Fact us, schools are "gun free zones"... That really stopped this tragedy.

Fact is, it is illegal to kill someone.... That really stopped this tragedy.

Fact is, there are guns used by law abiding citizens to prevent crimes...and some of these are never reported to police because a crime was stopped before it could take place. I am one of these people.

Fact is comparing our country to other countries for crime stats is not productive. Each country has a different culture.

Fact is our penal system is easy on criminals. Gibbons' murderer was a convicted felon, with a long rap sheet out on parole.



Fact is emotional knee jerk reactions might be feel good measures in the short term but do not address the problem.

Fact is all of the media and politicians who never liked guns and who have an antigun agenda will use the victims of this tragedy as puppets for their agendas.
 
The Newtown death are horrifying, that all those little kid will never grow up, that they were taken from their families. It doesn't seem to be the number of deaths that bothers people it's the manner of death. If it were the number, then we would be concerned about medical error deaths 130,000 per year, drunk drivers, 12,000 per year, drug related 35,000 deaths per year, tobacco related 400,000 deaths per year. So, if it's not the number, then it's about CONTROL, that's why it's called Gun CONTROL.
 
Lets let everyone follow this train of thought and lets see if you all could figure out who it is:"The statistics prove absolutely, more guns more murder. In the US we have more guns per capita and more gun murder. That's a fact!" See the key words that shows just how delusional some people are or just how little they pay attention to they post or what is running through their mind is this "the US we have more guns per capita". When I posted the Israel stat they tried to use that argument to say that the Israel quote was skewed because of the size of population to gun ownership. Now that they have been caught red handed talking sh!t and now EVERYONE can see just how much of a tool they have become I would like to suggest that they just back out of this and fade FAR AWAY and let the grown ups discuss this. This is just a prime example of the liberal delusional mentality for all to see so thank you whom ever did this because now we don't have to pull punches with you any longer!

On a side not I hate looking at parents (lets face it no self respecting man would ever do this. My kid competed nationally in cheer competitions and the most my wife and I ever wore were team shirts and that's because the competitions were on ESPN2) that wear matching outfits with their kids or even better grown a$$ women wearing sweatpants that say JUICY or PHAT or anything similar. YOU ARE A GROWN ADULT SO ACT LIKE IT DAMMIT!!!!!!! BE like men and go buy a car when you have a mid life crisis or better yet get in the kitchen and make your man a darn sandwich!!!!!!
 
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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
The Newtown death are horrifying, that all those little kid will never grow up, that they were taken from their families. It doesn't seem to be the number of deaths that bothers people it's the manner of death. If it were the number, then we would be concerned about medical error deaths 130,000 per year, drunk drivers, 12,000 per year, drug related 35,000 deaths per year, tobacco related 400,000 deaths per year. So, if it's not the number, then it's about CONTROL, that's why it's called Gun CONTROL.

Tom,

You do realize that there is a differance between an accident and murder, don't you?
 
Jim, if I was a big city lawyer and used liberal logic, I think I could argue that, because we knew the Newton shooter was clinically deemed mentally defective before the incident - it was therefore known that an outcome like this was possible. How could an insane man, who doesn't know what hes doing, be responsible for his actions?

Sounds more like an accident now...
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
John, "ACCIDENT" sre you serious?

I have heard people say this shooter was odd, I have not heard anyone say he was insane.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
For the last few days now we have heard the guns are great folks, try and blame this tragety on anything but guns.

We have heard them blame:

Video games
The Mother
The teachers
The school
The police
The laws
Parents in general
Not enough guns
We don't beat our childeren enough
He's insane
Now its just an accident!

Give it up, it is people with guns, pure and simple...................

This gun lover shot his way through a security door to enter the school, without guns, this little twerp could not have got into the building, much less killed anyone.
 
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Jim they have not release the medical records for the shooter so exactly what was wrong with the shooter is all speculation and hearsay at this point. We KNOW he had a mental illness but to what extent and what it was exactly has not been confirmed yet and I suspect that we will not hear that as the press want to keep that quiet as it doesn't fit with the presidents anti gun agenda. Sad but true.
 
For the last few days now we have heard the guns are great folks, try and blame this tragety on anything but guns.

We have heard them blame:

Video games
The Mother
The teachers
The school
The police
The laws
Parents in general
Not enough guns
We don't beat our childeren enough
Now its just an accident!

Give it up, it was the guns, pure and simple...................

This gun lover shot his way through a security door to enter the school, without guns, this little twerp could not have got into the building, much less killed anyone.


Blame it on the guns??? No..blame the user!

If drunk drivers used your logic, then none of the drunk drivers are to blame, its the car's fault and the alcohol's fault.

And it wasn't Tim McVeigh's fault, it was the fertilizer and diesel's fault...and the rental moving truck's fault. And if the federal building hadn't been there in Oklahoma City, then 168 innocent people wouldn't have died while another 800 innocent people were injured.

Sorry but you can not blame inanimate objects for decisions of evil people.
 
John, "ACCIDENT" sre you serious?

I have heard people say this shooter was odd, I have not heard anyone say he was insane.

No, I'm not serious. I'm just showing how ridiculous your logic is. Its easy to seen when its supporting something you disagree with, isn't it?

You just did it again saying that its the guns fault! I will continue to disagree that inanimate objects killed those children. I was obviously the man behind those objects.

But I cannot argue against that guns do make it easier to kill things.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Danimal

Let me help you out here all the things you mention have a use....................

Cars..............................transportation
Fertilizer.........................agriculture
Diesel.............................transportation
Truck.............................transportation
Alcohol...........................entertainment

When used as intended, no problem

Guns..............................death and intimidation

When used as intended, death!

Yes, you can kill people with Bricks and chopsticks, but that is not what they are designed for, it it?
 
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Danimal

Let me help you out here all the things you mention have a use....................

Cars..............................transportation
Fertilizer.........................agriculture
Diesel.............................transportation
Truck.............................transportation
Alcohol...........................entertainment

Guns..............................death and intimidation

No... Guns are designed and made to fire a projectile.... That's it. Its how the gun is used or misused. Just like the parking curb that was misused in the murder ofy ex-wife's uncle.
Just like the Honda accord that was misused in Sept, by exceeding a 30 mph speed limit, running a stop sign, t-boning my neighbor in his jeep killing him.

If my AR is designed to kill... Then in the thousands of rounds that I've shot through it, it must be defective, because it hasn't killed anything or anyone.
 
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