More Power for a Blown Ford

[Ron Earp]

I was thinking about my liquid to air intercooler on the Lightning the other day. One limitation to power production is how cool I can get the intake charge, after being compressed by the Eaton blower (and I know about the inherient efficency limitations of the blower etc). If I can get the compressed charge really cool then I can run more timing and extract a lot of extra power. You'd be amazed at how little timing these blown mod motors run to keep the detonation fairy at bay.

The motor has a fairly efficient liquid to air intercooler that sits in the intake manifold right after the output of the blower. The intercooler system has it's own cooling system that consists of a reservoir, pump, and radiator. All of these items are separate from the regular engine cooling system.

I was thinking, if I had myself a little evaporator core that was immersed in the intercooler reservoir, then I might be able to have low temperature coolant circulating through the intercooler core since we could chill the intercooler reservoir using the AC system. This would really give me a large temperature delta across the intercooler for the intake charge, and, allow me to run more timing and or more boost without fear of going bang.

The little evaporator core could probably be plumbed into the AC system easily using existing fill ports with tees. Then, if the car was running around with the AC on the core would be cooling the intercooler coolant anytime the AC was on. The intercooler radiator then might end up being a heater to the system though if we could get temperatures down below ambient. That could be fixed however with a variety of methods.

At any rate, nothing is for free which I realize and the thing would be good only for short blasts, but certainly long enough for some good fun in the quarter.

Anyone know of a source for a tiny evaporator core, maybe 6" long, 4-6" tall, and 1" or so thick? Might want to try this out for fun. Lots of folks build biger IC reservoir tanks and pour in some ice to do the same thing, and it works great. But if folks could have the same short term fun without the tank or ice, it'd be a winner.

 

[Kristian Wraae]

Something like this?

It's a condenser for a phasechange cooler for a computer.

The fan is 5 x 5 x 1.5 inch. So the condenser must be 6 x 6 x 2 inches.

 

[Ron Earp]

Hmmmmm, but is it a core that allows liquid to go through a small opening and expand into a gas, thus cooling off the unit?

 

[Kristian Wraae]

Alternatively you could just coil up som copper tube:

See the rest here: http://www.radiical.com.au/projects/RadiicalWaterChillerProjectTwo.asp

What you basicly want is a water chiller. There are hundreds of projects on the internet with people making water chillers out of A/C units. You just need something that will remove heat from the water tank. So it's a chiller. You can use a coil or a radiator.

 

[Kristian Wraae]

Just one thing, Before you go a head with it it might be a good idea to calculate how much heat the A/C unit will be able to remove. I assume the heat produced by the blower will phenomenal so it'll take quit an A/C unit to keep the water cool. You'll also need to disconnect the water from the present aircooled radiator since it'll just heat up the water in the tank.

So make sure the A/C unit can cope with it or alternatively make two circuits one that uses the air driven radiator and one that uses the A/C unit and a switch that will allow you to switch between chilled water and aircooled water.

 

[Kristian Wraae]

The better setup would probably be a two stage intercooler (if it can be done). The compressed air first get cooled by the aircooled water and then in the next stage it gets cooled by the chilled water in a closed circuit. For this you'll need two separate reservoir tanks. In this way the last stage can be turned on or off without affecting the performance of the first stage. This will also allow the second stage to "recharge" if the A/C unit is not powerful enough.

Another way of cooling if you just want to use it a short time could be to use some dry ice either to cool the aircooled radiator or use it to cool a second stage in the intercooler as described above but through some kind of heat sink directily connected to the dry ice. In this way you'd have a canister of dry ice connected to some kind of a finned heat sink which is mounted as a second stage in the intercooler.

 

[Ron Earp]

Just one thing, Before you go a head with it it might be a good idea to calculate how much heat the A/C unit will be able to remove. I assume the heat produced by the blower will phenomenal so it'll take quit an A/C unit to keep the water cool.

Idea is to use it for transitory blasts, not sustained cooling. So, if it takes 20mins of AC use while driving around two to get the water down to a good temp for a quarter mile blast, that is okay.

The other ideas RE: dry ice, CO2 on the intercooler radiator, etc. are in use. Problem is they require consumables. I'm trying to get around that via using a system already on the car to chill the water down for those impromtu stoplight drags and quarter mile runs.

A two stage intercooler would be very nice, but the way they packaged the air/water intercooler on the Lightning, Cobra, and Ford GT precludes this. The core is in the intake manifold and there is no additional room, unless you wanted to half the size of the stock intercooler and stick another one in. Your idea was a good one and is directly implemented in the 3rd generation Lightning which never came to be and is somewhat like what I am trying to replicate although not with two intercoolers as you mention and Ford tried.

Cool Technology Takes Power to New Levels:
Coletti’s team fit the SVT Lightning concept with an all-aluminum, 5.4-liter DOHC supercharged and intercooled V-8 engine conservatively rated at 500 horsepower and 500 foot pounds of torque (SAE net). And while they were at it, they invented and patented a speed secret for those times when even that much power just isn’t enough.

Ford’s patented SuperCooler technology cleverly provides a special burst of power for the SVT Lightning concept. Traditional intercoolers dissipate heat from the supercharged air by circulating coolant through a front-mounted, air-cooled radiator. With the SuperCooler system, the vehicle’s air conditioning system is used to chill a small storage tank of coolant to about 30 degrees Fahrenheit.

On demand, the SuperCooler system switches the intercooler flow from its normal circulation and dumps the chilled coolant into the engine’s intercooler. In turn, the intercooler dissipates up to 20 percent more heat from the charge air – resulting in a denser air charge.

A green light on the instrument panel indicates the system’s readiness. SuperCooler is activated automatically when the driver depresses the accelerator to a wide-open-throttle position.

“This technology plays directly into the hands of the enthusiast,” Coletti says. “The SuperCooler provides the edge for the driver, and it is done simply by taking advantage of the hardware that already exists in the vehicle.”

As a result of this cool technology, the SVT Lighting concept can give its driver as much as 50 transient horsepower for short bursts of 30-45 seconds and regenerate within 2 minutes under normal driving conditions. While its effect is similar to that of an aftermarket nitrous oxide system, the SuperCooler is completely self-contained, environmentally friendly and regenerative.

The SVT Lightning concept engine features a Lysholm, screw-type supercharger, paired with both an intercooler and the new SuperCooler system. The 32-valve, double-overhead-cam powerplant boasts Manley connecting rods, two fuel injectors per cylinder and high-performance heads similar to those on the limited-edition 2000 Ford SVT Mustang Cobra R.

 

[Alex Hirsbrunner]

Hi Ron,

I would suspect you could have some cheap fun by using a windshield washer pump/reservoir on a toggle/throttle position switch with a nozzle or two that can spray directly onto the intercooler radiator. Add a little alcohol to the water to get even more of a cooling effect (i.e. non-flammable mixture!).

You could probably use a relatively cheap 12v thermoelectric 6 pack cooler to cool the water (or at least keep it from heating up) while you drive so it's always ready for a quick blast. Of course, ice water is cheap too.

Now you could also direct some compressed C02 in the same area for a more pronounced effect! I don't know where the intercooler radiator air exits, but some fog pouring out of it at full throttle would be pretty cool.

Best Regards,

Al

Looks like we were thinking along the same lines - I was typing while you were posting...

 

[Ron Earp]

Hi Ron,

I would suspect you could have some cheap fun by using a windshield washer pump/reservoir on a toggle/throttle position switch with a nozzle or two that can spray directly onto the intercooler radiator. Add a little alcohol to the water to get even more of a cooling effect (i.e. non-flammable mixture!).

Looks like we were thinking along the same lines - I was typing while you were posting...

I think you are right on that too and it'd probably help a bit. Yeah, we're lacking for hp - last dyno run showed we were at 454hp and 576 ft/lb of torque - we need more!

Your Peltier device idea I've been working on for a cooler for race suits. They could chill the water down in the intercooler reservoir, but, it'd take forever without using a few of them. Nifty devices but it takes them awhile. Might look into how of one I can get, they use a fair amount of current though. Know any good sources for some really large ones?

Thing is, I know I'm leaving power on the table because we're so conservative with the spark timing it isn't funny. Ditto A/F, to be safe. But if the intake charge were a good bit cooler we could run more timing which works wonders for the hp side of things. I don't care about torque, even at 2800 RPM which is about as as low as we can go due to gearing and the automatic, we're at 500 at the wheels and it stays flat.

The Ford GTs can be monsters with boost increases as shown in MM&FF. They already have a much more efficicent screw blower and don't generate as much heat as the (H)Eaton blower does at high boost levels.

Snow Performance markets a kit a lot like you mention to inject MeOH into the intake plenium to cool the air intake for blown/turbo motors. Works pretty well too and I made a system like that for my old beloved Lotus, but never installed it. Still have it here, but with the Lightning it isn't so easy to get to where you can inject the MeOH because the blower sits on the intake, the intercooler under the blower, and then the intake runner to each cylinder so it is sort of tough.

R

 

[Alex Hirsbrunner]

This guy ($75) draws 4 amps and will cool to 40 below ambient:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4810828

I checked out the spec from the mfg and it takes 3 hours to get to its minimum temperature (when empty!). So with water in it looks like it would take forever and is probably only suited to keeping something cool rather than cooling in a reasonable period of time. A bad idea on my part...

How about a tune with more spark geared for 100 octane? (assuming there is a product that lets you download and revert tunes for the lightning) I was just at the local gas station that carries Rockett brand fuel. Funny thing is, I used to think it was expensive, but now, at only a 1 buck something more than 93 octane, it seems cheap!

So which will ultimately have the higher power to weight ratio when you are done - the l o l a or the truck towing it? .

Al

 

[Kristian Wraae]

A few peltiers here: http://www.frozencpu.com/scan/se=Water%20Cooling/se=Peltiers%20Kits%20and%20Coldplates/mp=menu_search.html

I don't recommed peltiers. They are simply too ineffecient for this kind of high wattage cooling.


The A/C idea is good you just need something that can remove a lot of heat.

You could setup two systems like this:

A reservoir with two connected chambers plus a cold chamber. You mount three pumps. One drives the radiator and the other drives the intercooler. The last one drives the cold chamber.

The intercooler is fed by the cold part of the hot chamber and the radiator is fed by the hot part of the hot chamber. The radiator feeds the cold part of the hot chamber.

For normal use the two pumps between the hot chamber and the intercooler and the radiator are on. When the boost is needed the radiator pump is switched off and the cold chamber pump is switched on.

You might want to switch the direction of the pump on the cold chamber.

 

[Howard Jones]

Ron, a question that's a little off subject. My buddy just put on a holly blower and the thing pings like crazy. 10 pounds of boost and the data logger is saying 36 degrees of advance at 1500 RPMS. This is clearly the problem as the AF ratio looks OK at about 11 to 1 but what would be a nice conservative advance curve for a stock 4.6 mod motor with 10psi of boost.

 

[Ron Earp]

Whoo whee! That is a receipe for disaster!

Go here:

www.corral.net

or here:

www.svtperformance.com

If you kick around over there you'll find a lot of these blown mod motors are running about 16-22 degrees (some higher) of total timing when running 10-15psi or so. Mine is at 16 degrees or so when under pressure, very conservative.

Sounds like you need to get the timing curve pulled back into the mid-20s for a start. I'm not certain and no expert, but that seems to be the concensus from spending time on those forums. I know the Lightning crowd does go much more than low 20s total while on the boost.

Does he have an intercooler? Intake charge temperature is going to have a whole lot to do with how much timing and boost the thing will deal with. If there is no intercooler I sort of doubt he's going to get away with much more than 6lbs of boost on that motor without some pinging.

Ron

 

[Ron Earp]

Howard, I was thinking about that some more and it doesn't seem right these motors would only run around 16-22 total advance under boost. Maybe that is what is added to the base timing that is being shown in the handheld tuner and folks are not making the distinction.

Next time I drive the L, in a few hours, I'll plug it in and see what it shows.

R

 

[Howard Jones]

Thanks Ron, I am just trying to get him back to safe setup. I am sure that that much advance will kill that motor. He's not driving it now so I think it's going to be a matter of learning how the data logger and ECU programming works, then putting in a new setup. He does have a intercooler under blower in what would be the lifter valley on a pushrod motor, and a water cooler at the front of the car under the front valance fed by a aux. pump.

I'll get him to those web sites for some advice.

Thanks again, Howard

 

[JohnC]

Ron, I was studying the effects of methanol injection on charge air temps awhile back, and I asked a process engineer buddy of mine to model it in a program called HYSIS, which is a high end process simulator program that we use in the petrochem industry.

The conditions I gave him were 25kg/min of charge air flow, at a pressure of 1.0 barg (about 15 psi of boost), and an entry temperature of 140 degrees C. Ambient air temperature was 25 degrees C. (This airflow figure represents the WOT requirements of a 4.0 litre Lexus motor.)

The graph below shows the reduction in air temperature available vs the amount of methanol injected. I didn't ask him to run the same simulation with a 50/50 solution of methanol & water, but I think I will, just for curiosity.

The graph didn't translate from Excel to JPG very well, but FYI, 1.5 kg/min of methanol injection comes out to an 80 degree C drop in charge air temperature. I know that 1.5 kg/min of methanol sounds like a lot, but keep in mind, this air flow rate is at 6500 RPM for a solid minute, and that's a pretty long time to stay in boost....

I would think you could inject either pre or post supercharger with pretty good results. Post supercharger is obviously safer, but harder to get to. Presupercharger would probably work OK for straight methanol, or methanol with just a bit of water in it. Obviously you don't want the stuff puddling in the supercharger.

As I'm sure you're already aware, the methanol will also provide additional fueling, but its AFR for a Lambda of 1.0 is completely different than gasoline, so it may confuse your O2 sensor and ECU. Too, it does some nasty stuff to aluminum, seals, and o-rings when it's left in the system, so many folks use an upper cylinder lubricant with their M/W "cocktails" to reduce its corrosive and drying effects.

John

 

[Ron Earp]

Thanks Ron, I am just trying to get him back to safe setup.

I'll get him to those web sites for some advice.

Thanks again, Howard

Hi Howard, I drove the truck this morning and it looks like it is total timing. So, riding down the road timing is about 31-32 degrees at cruise. Get on the throttle an the timing will drop to 15-16 degrees under boost. I don't experience any pinging at any time, at least I have not yet.

Nice plots with the MeOH injection. It seems to work well on the Lightning/Cobras, as long as one either increases boost or timing to take advantage of the cooling. If you leave everything the same and just inject the MeOH you don't see much gain at all, if any, according to the dyno test that a few have posted on the Lightning forums. You'd expect that too, since the point of MeOH injection is to allow a more aggressive state of tune for the motor.

I've only seen pre-injection with the Ford mod motors with Eaton chargers. What I had worked up for my Lotus would be after the turbo with a check valve so the turbo wouldn't pressurize my pump/reservoir!

Ron