Motec M-48

I need help getting my car up and running. I have a M-48 (complete with ignition expander)4 twin coil packs, ford cam sensor and Ford 36 -1 tooth crank trigger on a mild 306 with 36LB injectors. All wiring was done though Roaring Forties so I'm confident that it is correct. The ECU does prower up pumps work etc. The problem is I can not get a spark. I have no set up for the firing or for the signal to the coils. Can anyone help?
All advice is greatly appriciated as this seems to be well over my head.
John

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi John - Merry Christmas!

When you say the pumps run - on switching the ignition on (not cranking) does the HP pump run for a fixed time of say 8 seconds and then switch off? if it does that would indicate that the ECU is controlling them and initialising ok.

Then, if you crank for a second, does the pump start again and run for another fixed period? - if it does, it probably indicates you are getting a Sync/Ref signal (even if timed incorrectly).

If the pump doesnt restart then stop, I would check your gap on the timing disc pickup - as it can be quite critical.


Finally - when cranking, do the injectors inject? i.e., can you hear them tick or smell the fuel when you open the throttle bodies? Again if they do then the crank trigger is probably giving a signal. (The injectors will normally all batch fire - if you turn the ignition on and fully open the throttle - useful on a cold day)

I am of course asuming that you do NOT have the interface lead to link laptop to the ECU. - If you do, plug it in and run up the software with the ignition turned on. You should be able to monitor all that is going on (or not!) from the diagnostics software which will show lack of triggers etc etc.

Although we do not have twin coil packs (we use 8 coils) our setup is probably very similar and worked pretty much first time we tried.

One last thing, when we initially switched from carb to inj using an ACCEL ECU, we kept fouling plugs using an Electromotive multi-coil setup as the initial map provided in the ECU was massively over-rich. If it did not start instantly it would'nt at all. Not a problem we have had with the Motec I might add.

Hope this is of some use -

regards

 

Paul,
Thank you very much. Sounds like I will need to check the crank pick-up. The pumps from what I can tell only come on for a short fixed time and then do not restart while cranking. I do not get gas to the injectors either so once again all points to the crank sensor. When I unplug it the pumps pulse on then off. 3 second or so on then off for 10 or so the on again. Does this make sense?
I do have the interface cable and it says the error is a sync error? At least from what I remember. With running the risk of sounding like a complete fool I will admit that it could say anything about the sensors and I'd just say huh? Would it be possible to have a map set up sent to me? Please e-mail me if you can. Understanding of course that I will need to change the number of coils. Speaking of which, do you have it set a 1 or 8. Does the expander do all the work and the ECU still thinks that it is controlling just 1? I will try the pick up ASAP, unfortunately probably not for a couple of days. Wednesday hopefully.
Thank you so much helping me getting headed in the right direction.
John

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

[ QUOTE ]
Paul,
I do not get gas to the injectors either

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi again - I've mailed you as requested John - but when you say no fuel gets to the injector - you do have fuel being returned ok to the tank? -

Also - whilst the Motec ECU / Ignition expander do most of the work - you do need to tell the ECU the Engine's firing order (or at least you do for fully sequential operation - I'll check for 'wasted spark' setup) Remember too that this is governed by the camshaft and is often different on a later injection setup to the firing order for an early carb setup. Again - this can be confirmed with the cam spec sheet.

Finally - most setups use the ECU to drive the Tacho - does the RF? - if so, does the tacho indicate anything when you are cranking??

 

I have never even looked at the Motec system but generally "no sync" is a crank sensor fault as is suggested. There may be some setup you need to do as to the type of sensor maybe?? (VR or hall??) or maybe it just isnt wired right somehow so that sensor isnt sending the signal? Is it a MOtec specific sensor or is it from a vehicle? If it is from a vehicle, let me know what one and I can send you the test procedure for it to tell you what wire should do what.

 

Eric,
It is a crank sensor from a Ford V-8 1998-2000 5.0 liter. Same as used on the Explorers.
I'm sorry but I don't have the part number with me. If you do need it let me know.
Paul you should have mail.
Thanks again! It's really tough to look at such a pretty car that has taken 3 years to complete just to fight a computer /sensor setup.
John

 

Ok, this may be a possibility. The service manual lists the wires for the crank sensor as grey/yellow being the negative and black/pink being positive, check that that is correctly done to the motec (mine may be a misprint too). Put a multimeter on AC voltage, disconnect the sensor and crank the engine with the meter on the sensor terminals, it should stabilize at .4 volts or higher, if not, check the resistance across the sensor, should have 300-800 ohms. After that it gets complicated. Also, after re-reading your first post (and feeling like an idiot for my what vehicle question) you are using the cam sensor as well as the crank? I assume you are then running sequential injection? If that is the case, and you are over your head as it is, i would probably set it up to run batch injection first in a bank to bank injection, get that working then play with sequential. If this doesnt find the problem (or it does) message or email me and i will scan, translate, and send you the rest of the diagnostic info.

 

[Chris Duncan]

Not positive but I believe the Ford sensors are Hall Effect type sensors.

Not sure if your software is the same but in the free Motec software I downloaded I went to the Main Menu- Adjust- SELECT SCREEN- General Setup- Main Setup- it should show the sensor types, Ref Sensor Type and Sync Sensor Type, they both should be set to 1 for Hall Effect.

The crank sensor is the Ref sensor and the cam sensor is the Sync sensor, so with a "sync error" indicated I would look at your cam sensor for the problem.

Probably a call to Robert or a post in the RF section would get this problem solved, if you do that post to the forum with the resolution, it would be interesting.

 

Thanks again for the advise.
RF is on vacation until the 10th!!! Just my luck.
I will let you know what comes of it ASAP.
I'm going to try to give it a shot tomorrow.
John

 

[Ross Nicol]

John
I have the M48 in my car and had a problem at the same stage as you.Mine turned out to be ref and sync round the wrong way.How we eventually determined this was by checking the RPM on the laptop.The RPM reading was way too low for the cranking speed.I have a distributor which supplies both signals.Sounds like your on the right track,so no signal from the crank no doubt.Try cranking with that screen on the laptop and this will confirm.Is the sensor hall or optical and connected to the correct ECU inputs? Worth checking.Let me know if I can help further, I'm not an expert but I have played with it quite a lot and I have 30 years in electronics.
Good luck Ross

 

[Ross Nicol]

John I'm just checking the manual and under initial cranking,it says to crank the engine without fuel pressure and check the RPM reading. Check the RPM reading is sensible.If too high or low or erratic then setup may be incorrect or there may be a problem with the ref sensor signal.If there is no RPM reading then the ref sensor is not working.Check that no REF or SYNC Diagnostic errors occur during constant cranking.
Ross

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi again John -

Had a look at your file today and noticed a few problems you can check in the 'General setup' menu.

Firstly Trigger Types - [rFSn & SYSn]
These need to set correctly as per type fitted. Most mag pickups are magnetic and tend to have only two wires (eg MSD) whereas hall effect types generally have 3-wires. Power ground and the signal output. Not only do they need to be set correctly in the setup, but need to enter the ECU on the correct pin.

On the M48 - the ref (crank) input goes to pin 5 of the ECU for Hall Effect and pin 6 for Magnetic.

Similarly, the Sync (camshaft) input goes to pin 7 of the ECU for Hall Effect and pin 8 for Magnetic. (Might be worth tracing the wires from the ECU to pickup to see how they have been fitted)

Secondly Reference Mode- [rEF]
This was set to 4 on your file and I believe should be 51-54 to indicate that there are 'n-1' pulses per engine revolution, and that two teeth are missed per engine cycle (720 degs). Mode 4 would indicate one pulse per firing.

Number of teeth [cr T]
should be 36 to indicate your 36-1 wheel (include the missing tooth)

Tooth Ratio [TOr]
Set to 50 to indicate the 'missing tooth' is equally spaced.

Ingition Mode [ign]
This was set to 1 or 2 but should be 100 - this sets a mode to use the ignition expander and if not set to 100 - you won't get any output from the expander, no signal to ignition amplifiers and hence no sparks from coils.

Finally - Crank Index Position. = [select on test]
This value informs the ECU of where in the sequence of events the sync occurs in relation to TDC and needs to be set correctly so that (a) the correct coil fires and (b) so that the timing in the ECU TABLE follows is accurate.

Assuming all your coils are correctly wired and to the required cylinders - you can set this by starting the engine, setting the timing TEST ADVANCE to say 30degrees and then checking with a timing light that the same is shown on the damper timing. (if using a dialback strobe, note that most require reading doubling, or halving when used on a wasted spark system - can't remember which at the moment). If it is out, the CRIP is increased or decreased until the fixed 30 degs is accurate to the motor. TEST MODE can then be turned off and the timing should be locked to the ECU TABLE. (check it to be sure)

Of course if you do not know the order to connect the coils - you can line up the plugs on a suitable earthed piece of chassis and crank to determine the firing order of the coils. (disconnect fuel pump relay or remove injector connections to avoid flooding engine) Once ou know the sequence of the coils A B C D you can then connect to the engine plugs in the firing order eg 1-A 5-B 4-C 2-D 6-A 3-B 7-C 8-D (OR as per Camshaft)

NEXT - reconnect injector and try to start - if engine backfires, pops bangs etc - then your CRIP is out by a multiple of 90degrees - adjust and try again. Once engine will run, you then fine set the CRIP as per previous text.

Hope the above makes sense and I have emailed you your ECU file with adjustments to trigger type (both Hall) Trigger mode etc etc. NOTE I have not made ANY other adjustments to your file in relation to any fuelling or ignition maps - the correct running and fuelling of your engine should be of paramount importance when you run your engine, especially initially - check check and check again.

Happy new year (bit early I know) and let us know how you get on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi again John - Any luck yet?

 

Somewhat, yes. I haven't had much time but the sensors ARE mag, not hall as programmed so the wires have been reconfigured and from there are I think it should be pretty straight forward. Thank you again for all of your help.
Hopefully I will hear it run this weekend- if business engagements allow.
John

 

Well, a few months have gone by and today was the day. The car finally started! Too bad for me (but good for the new owner) the car is sold. I have to thank all of you that posted help. RF and I could not get this thing going. It has been DOA since early December. Don't get me wrong the support is great but this I realized was, well just something that I was on mine own with. That being said I was contacted by and enlisted the help from a fantastic Motec rep by the name of George Clark. His contact info is as follow
3539 Red Cloud Dr.
Lake Havasu, AZ 86406
928-854-6023
[email protected]
Anyone and I mean ANYONE with problems like mine should get him out to help you ASAP. Fortunately he has just set up office in AZ so that is a plus. Prior to the recent move the only other rep in AZ is "limited" and well George was the blessing I needed.
No disrespect to anyone but the suggestions of a carb and distributor where not an option. I do realize that it would have been easier and also that RF from what I was told had never set up a M-48 with an expander for a multi-coil set up so I did realize the potential for trouble but hell I'm a Taurus and that is what makes me so stubborn.
Anyhow, George found all of the wiring problems and corrected them for me. There were many but the newly configured harness has corrected everything.
If anyone needs Motec help this is the man for the job. Very protective of the product and service level provided. He did it for me at a very reasonable rate because "Motec reps should support the product and the customers should be taken care of" since I still had problems he stepped in. I can't say enough about him.
Thanks to all involved Hershal for the build and space etc., RF for the car, and George for the knowledge of the ECU.and correct wiring. This problem and associated stress has only taken a few years off of my life. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Not to mention the countless $ trying to fix it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif George where were you in December! Oh yeah, California.

Can't wait to get another one of these.
One that I can keep!!!
I tryed to get the Fire Dept to buy/sponsor it but with out a hose it is of no use to them. Oh well, never hurts to try.

Any suggestions on engine break in or just jump in and run it like a rapped ape!

John

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Great news John - I'm sure the new owner will have many miles of trouble free motoring.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif