Paint
- Thread starter Bryan Wand
- Start date
Bryan, I hope I'm not seen to be hi-jacking your thread here. I'd also like to know the answer to the question that you raised. But can I also add another theoretical question...
Sitting around the dinner table earlier tonight, the question was raised of the possibility of painting the GT40 myself. The opinions (all of which came from people who had never really attempted to paint a car) came thick and fast, and quite varied. They ranged from, "Dont even think about it, you need too many years of practice" to "Anyone who has the manual skills to build one of these things, should be able to master it".
I suspect that the truth lies somehwere in between, but it would be interesting to here about some of the real successes and failures from the home painters here on this forum (while answering Bryan's question).
Sitting around the dinner table earlier tonight, the question was raised of the possibility of painting the GT40 myself. The opinions (all of which came from people who had never really attempted to paint a car) came thick and fast, and quite varied. They ranged from, "Dont even think about it, you need too many years of practice" to "Anyone who has the manual skills to build one of these things, should be able to master it".
I suspect that the truth lies somehwere in between, but it would be interesting to here about some of the real successes and failures from the home painters here on this forum (while answering Bryan's question).
Hi guys - Well here's my 2cents worth on this topic (please keep in mind that I am an amature and do not do this for a living, but have painted 4 or 5 custom hotrods (57 chevy, 37 chevy, 36 ford, 66 mustang and some "normal cars") complete as of this writing).
First - how much paint - depends on what you are doing, how many coats you use to cover, number of colors etc. If it is a simple base coat/clear coat, assume 3 solid coats of base under 3 or 4 solid coats of clear, you can usually do it in 3 quarts of base (I always buy a little more, so I usually get a full gallon so the mix will match should something not work correctly during the shoot or a touch up later). The 66 mustang was a complete color change including jams, under hood, and full trunk. I have a little over a full pint left on the shelf.
Can you do it? Yes, it can be done, but if you are just building the car now and have a year or two to go before paint, then I suggest you look around for evening classes at a local high-school or junior college for a Paint and Body-work class. If you are not willing to do that, then I'd say, DON'T try it "at home". This is not a skill that you can pick up by "reading about it". If you do that and actually go there to truly learn and work, then by the time you are ready to shoot the car, you should have MOST OF THE SKILLS - if you've practiced on other cars (repaint the 1980" commute car you own, or some parts of it! just for practice!).
If the instructor is a retired body and paint man, he can really give you better directions, and you should talk to many people who have actually taken his classes.
Doing it at home in your garage will (for an amature) not yield a paint job that you will be pleased with. You MUST have the proper paint guns, you MUST MUST MUST have a CLEAN source of air (oiless is best) that is scrubbed clean of oils and water!, and you really do need a spray booth (both for the quality of paint job and usually for legality of spraying most paints in cities today - damn lawmakers).
People will tell you that you can "make a spray booth at home in your garage". Well, yes I know people who do, but they have been painting cars for many, many years, and know all of the pitfalls.
I'm sure that there are individuals on the forum who do paint cars for a living (or have in prior lives) who can recommend better training and information. Start with Hershal, I think he painted his car - - not sure though.
good luck
ps - be careful when you take a body/paint class - if you REALLY learn the stuff, it will ruin your appreciation of the "average" paint job, because you will now be able to spot all of the mistakes - sometimes ignorance is bliss!!!
First - how much paint - depends on what you are doing, how many coats you use to cover, number of colors etc. If it is a simple base coat/clear coat, assume 3 solid coats of base under 3 or 4 solid coats of clear, you can usually do it in 3 quarts of base (I always buy a little more, so I usually get a full gallon so the mix will match should something not work correctly during the shoot or a touch up later). The 66 mustang was a complete color change including jams, under hood, and full trunk. I have a little over a full pint left on the shelf.
Can you do it? Yes, it can be done, but if you are just building the car now and have a year or two to go before paint, then I suggest you look around for evening classes at a local high-school or junior college for a Paint and Body-work class. If you are not willing to do that, then I'd say, DON'T try it "at home". This is not a skill that you can pick up by "reading about it". If you do that and actually go there to truly learn and work, then by the time you are ready to shoot the car, you should have MOST OF THE SKILLS - if you've practiced on other cars (repaint the 1980" commute car you own, or some parts of it! just for practice!).
If the instructor is a retired body and paint man, he can really give you better directions, and you should talk to many people who have actually taken his classes.
Doing it at home in your garage will (for an amature) not yield a paint job that you will be pleased with. You MUST have the proper paint guns, you MUST MUST MUST have a CLEAN source of air (oiless is best) that is scrubbed clean of oils and water!, and you really do need a spray booth (both for the quality of paint job and usually for legality of spraying most paints in cities today - damn lawmakers).
People will tell you that you can "make a spray booth at home in your garage". Well, yes I know people who do, but they have been painting cars for many, many years, and know all of the pitfalls.
I'm sure that there are individuals on the forum who do paint cars for a living (or have in prior lives) who can recommend better training and information. Start with Hershal, I think he painted his car - - not sure though.
good luck
ps - be careful when you take a body/paint class - if you REALLY learn the stuff, it will ruin your appreciation of the "average" paint job, because you will now be able to spot all of the mistakes - sometimes ignorance is bliss!!!
I've painted my vehicles various times over the years. I'm not a pro by any means nor do I do it for a living or for others. Painting can probably be summed up by saying 80% of the paint job is preparation...smoothing, priming, sanding, more smoothing. Your hand is a wonderful gauge of surface prep. If you run your hand over a surface, you can feel high and low spots, roughness, etc. If you can feel it, you will definately be able to see it once painted. You need decent paint guns that atomize paint correctly and spray a good repeatable fan pattern without being heavy at one end or the other. It is really difficult for us guys without a paint booth to keep dirt and bugs out of the paint. I have a 35x50 garage with 14 ft ceilings which helps some. I put the car in the middle of the garage and wet the floor. Even then, overspray will fall back on the car and create roughness in the paint.
Using basecoat/clearcoat is somewhat more forgiving because you can color sand (1200-1500 grit paper) the clearcoat which will remove minor surface problems, then buff it back to a shine.
There is some technique required with a gun, but it can be mastered with a little practice. Watching someone who paints for a living helps a lot.
The bigest drawback these days to painting is the cost of paint. It is astronomical anymore!! Unless you have deep pockets, making mistakes can be EXPENSIVE. You can always let it dry, resand it, and start again if you make a mistake, but it gets real expensive real fast.
So, to sum up, the average guy can acheive good results if you have decent equipment and a place to paint where you won't stir up a lot of dirt with the paint gun. Get the product sheets for the paint being used. They give mixing ratios, pot life, etc. Go to the store with a fat wallet!!
Using basecoat/clearcoat is somewhat more forgiving because you can color sand (1200-1500 grit paper) the clearcoat which will remove minor surface problems, then buff it back to a shine.
There is some technique required with a gun, but it can be mastered with a little practice. Watching someone who paints for a living helps a lot.
The bigest drawback these days to painting is the cost of paint. It is astronomical anymore!! Unless you have deep pockets, making mistakes can be EXPENSIVE. You can always let it dry, resand it, and start again if you make a mistake, but it gets real expensive real fast.
So, to sum up, the average guy can acheive good results if you have decent equipment and a place to paint where you won't stir up a lot of dirt with the paint gun. Get the product sheets for the paint being used. They give mixing ratios, pot life, etc. Go to the store with a fat wallet!!
Speaking of the cost of paint. I have successfully used most of the big names
available, and YES the cost has increased
big time over the past (10) years.
Not hard at all to have $ 1500 in product.
That said, I noticed Kirker's prices were
50% or less than the big guys, but their
color selection is limited. However if you
can use one of their colors, their price
is UNBEATABLE and my results (so far) are
outstanding.
MikeD
available, and YES the cost has increased
big time over the past (10) years.
Not hard at all to have $ 1500 in product.
That said, I noticed Kirker's prices were
50% or less than the big guys, but their
color selection is limited. However if you
can use one of their colors, their price
is UNBEATABLE and my results (so far) are
outstanding.
MikeD
Peter Delaney
GT40s Supporter
A compromise approach that I am using is to prep the car myself, lay on a 2-pack polyester filler, sand back with 320 grade, lay on primer, sand back to 600 grade, & then hand the masked-up car over to a professional for the base/clear. I think that about 95% of the labour cost of a good paint job is in the prep, & that is something that any amateur can do (given patience).
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
I think Peter is right on the money. After all, you CAN afford the equipment for the prep work- sander, discs, primer, filler, etc. And it is easy to redo your mistakes. What is EXPENSIVE is a professional booth, pro guns (HVLP or standard), ventilation systems, etc. Even the right masks so you don't kill your liver inhaling the stuff are expensive. The other thing that costs a lot is all the experience to learn to do it right- especially if you get that experience on your GT40. Then it's REALLY expensive.
Prep the car yourself, then have the paint man inspect it. He'll find stuff you missed. After a few go-rounds like that, it will be ready, he'll shoot it, and then you take it and assemble it. You'll have the best of both worlds- as long as you don't screw it up in the reassembly process.
Prep the car yourself, then have the paint man inspect it. He'll find stuff you missed. After a few go-rounds like that, it will be ready, he'll shoot it, and then you take it and assemble it. You'll have the best of both worlds- as long as you don't screw it up in the reassembly process.
Peter & Jim,
There is some real food for thought there. Its a lateral thought that wouldn't have occured to me otherwise. Its an especially good idea since no professional is really interested in doing the job through the Holiday period.
I have assisted in prep work before so I have some knowledge in that field, but can anyone tell me if there are any special considerations for fiberglass?
There is some real food for thought there. Its a lateral thought that wouldn't have occured to me otherwise. Its an especially good idea since no professional is really interested in doing the job through the Holiday period.
I have assisted in prep work before so I have some knowledge in that field, but can anyone tell me if there are any special considerations for fiberglass?
Peter Delaney
GT40s Supporter
Bryan, I think that Dave's estimate of about a gallon of base & a gallon of clear should see you through for the final finish. You will also need a gallon or so of primer. If the body needs a bit of filling / fairing, I'd also budget on a gallon of high-fill sprayable polyester resin/filler.
Chris, I am part way into the painting of my '40, and am leveraging off the 15 year experience of a professional who is doing the body-work on my '71 Corvette. He has tried just about everything over the years with finishing f/glass, & has settled on the following :
- Never use body-filler on any holes larger than the size of a match-head. Anything bigger, grind the area back, lay in glass & resin, consolidate with a grooved roller, & sand back after a week or so.
- Block back (flat stick sand) the whole body using 80-100 grade paper on a block at least 300mm long where possible (or a length of PVC pipe for concave curves).
- Decide on a paint manufacturer to go with for the whole process, from filler to primer, to base, to clear. We are using the 2-pack Spies Hecker (a DuPont Co) system : this starts with a high-build polyester filler (Raderal) which you can lay on up to 2mm thick if required. The idea here is to provide a uniform surface for the next sanding operation - you won't get the ripples that come with sanding across different materials (eg adjoining sections of raw glass, body filler, gel-coat). The Raderal should be blocked back at about 280-320 grade. After that, you run a couple of light coats of Vario primer over the lot, allow a week or so, & then block it all back with 600 grade paper.
- That is where I would hand it over to the professional for the base & clear.
The whole preparation process is really time-consuming, but it is easy to do & worth it in the end. I have the front clip in the Raderal filler, and have spent about 5 hours blocking back half of it - so I am guessing on about around 40 hours for the whole car.
The key to working with f/glass seems to be patience - any large areas of new glass should be left for a few weeks to stabilise before blocking back & painting.
Please feel free to give me call on 02 9988-3587 if you would like to discuss this further.
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
Chris, I am part way into the painting of my '40, and am leveraging off the 15 year experience of a professional who is doing the body-work on my '71 Corvette. He has tried just about everything over the years with finishing f/glass, & has settled on the following :
- Never use body-filler on any holes larger than the size of a match-head. Anything bigger, grind the area back, lay in glass & resin, consolidate with a grooved roller, & sand back after a week or so.
- Block back (flat stick sand) the whole body using 80-100 grade paper on a block at least 300mm long where possible (or a length of PVC pipe for concave curves).
- Decide on a paint manufacturer to go with for the whole process, from filler to primer, to base, to clear. We are using the 2-pack Spies Hecker (a DuPont Co) system : this starts with a high-build polyester filler (Raderal) which you can lay on up to 2mm thick if required. The idea here is to provide a uniform surface for the next sanding operation - you won't get the ripples that come with sanding across different materials (eg adjoining sections of raw glass, body filler, gel-coat). The Raderal should be blocked back at about 280-320 grade. After that, you run a couple of light coats of Vario primer over the lot, allow a week or so, & then block it all back with 600 grade paper.
- That is where I would hand it over to the professional for the base & clear.
The whole preparation process is really time-consuming, but it is easy to do & worth it in the end. I have the front clip in the Raderal filler, and have spent about 5 hours blocking back half of it - so I am guessing on about around 40 hours for the whole car.
The key to working with f/glass seems to be patience - any large areas of new glass should be left for a few weeks to stabilise before blocking back & painting.
Please feel free to give me call on 02 9988-3587 if you would like to discuss this further.
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
Jim R. mentioned, "as long as you don't screw it up in the reassembly process." That brings up a question; when is the best time to paint the car during the build process? I've read the GTD manual, and they have it painted about 2/3rds through the build. But the GT40 body is so unsual; wouldn't you want to paint the interior of the spider/doors before they go on? With all of the openings for overspray to sneak in, would the front and rear clips be painted off the car? Max.
Having worked in a body shop as a teenager, albeit with limited spraying experience, I suggest painting the clips seperately. There are difficult spots to paint(i.e. vents) which would be far easier to paint with the clips off the car. The doors should be fitted,positions marked, and painted seperately also.
As stated earlier,prep means everything, when a good job is what you are after. By all means, take plenty of time masking the car(parts). Paper, tape and time are a small
price to pay for a first rate job. While some overspray can be buffed, no overspray
is far easier to live with!
Bill
As stated earlier,prep means everything, when a good job is what you are after. By all means, take plenty of time masking the car(parts). Paper, tape and time are a small
price to pay for a first rate job. While some overspray can be buffed, no overspray
is far easier to live with!
Bill
As a panel beater / sprayer by trade, I thought I`d add my own thoughts on home paint jobs. Here in UK, it is perfectly legal to spray your own car at home! I hope you will be using modern two-pack paint and not the cellulose the originals were painted in. Modern paints are much more durable and give a much better finish - but they are cyanide based. If you decide to spray at home, make sure you have a proper air fed spray mask and remember, cyanide can enter the body through the eyes as well as breathing it in
I must agree with Peter Delaney, use one manufacturers products from start to finish, they`ve spent years ensuring the compatibillity of their materials. the last thing you want is a reaction after spending all that time on the preperation. Believe me, it WILL take ages but the end result is totally dependant on the work put in
Probably the best compromise would be to do the donkey work, then let a professional body shop paint the car. Get it ready for primer, let the painter check it, prime it yourself if you feel confident, sand the primer, then give it to them to spray in a proper booth.
The paint job will be one of the first things anyone sees when they look at your car, you want it to look good, right??
Off the top of my head, using top quality paint, with a car that is blemish-free, to paint a GT40, with materials, I would budget £800- £1000 for a perfect show stopping finish. Best grand you`ll ever spend
Saying that though, if you really feel up to the job, you cant beat the satisfaction of painting it yourself!!
Good luck
[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: TallPaul ]
I must agree with Peter Delaney, use one manufacturers products from start to finish, they`ve spent years ensuring the compatibillity of their materials. the last thing you want is a reaction after spending all that time on the preperation. Believe me, it WILL take ages but the end result is totally dependant on the work put in
Probably the best compromise would be to do the donkey work, then let a professional body shop paint the car. Get it ready for primer, let the painter check it, prime it yourself if you feel confident, sand the primer, then give it to them to spray in a proper booth.
The paint job will be one of the first things anyone sees when they look at your car, you want it to look good, right??
Off the top of my head, using top quality paint, with a car that is blemish-free, to paint a GT40, with materials, I would budget £800- £1000 for a perfect show stopping finish. Best grand you`ll ever spend
Saying that though, if you really feel up to the job, you cant beat the satisfaction of painting it yourself!!
Good luck
[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: TallPaul ]
Howard Jones
Supporter
OK I'm not a paint/ body guy and I want to have a good job done. Prep, paint car with Two stripes down the middle and the rally stripe bellow the door. It will be about 1 to 1.5 years away and I want to begin saving up for paintjob. Please give me an idea how much money I'm talking about. I have a GTD if that matters.
Talk to Farahd. He just had his car done and I believe he is happy. We should go over and take a look. As his car was to be done in black it should show up the kind of prep work this fella does. Depending on what you are willing to do you can start at about 2500 and and easily go up to 5000 for just a good job. Show quality can start around 8000 and work its way up to 20,000 in a hurry.
Ahhh errr.... what do you get for US $20,000????? For that sort of money, I would expect no one less than Leonardo DaVinci himself to do the job!!!
I hope I don't offend anyone here, but that sort of money for a few coats of paint, (however spectacular it may seem) is obsene. And if you consider that most of it should be labor costs, the job hours equate to incompitence, not skill.
Just my opinion.
I hope I don't offend anyone here, but that sort of money for a few coats of paint, (however spectacular it may seem) is obsene. And if you consider that most of it should be labor costs, the job hours equate to incompitence, not skill.
Just my opinion.
Chris
I agree. Anyone who pays $ 20k for a paint job has more money than they need.
I have seen paint jobs that did
cost the owner $ 20k, especially
full size autos where the entire inside
and undercarriage were painted as well
as the exterior, underhood, INSIDE the doors, etc etc. These cars are trailered
from show to show of course.
This should not be the case with the GT40
due to it's limited surface area. Assuming the panels are good quality, $ 5000 should cover it assuming no other work is involved.
However if you ask the body shop to hang,
align, and make the gaps perfect, the cost
can escalate depending upon how much time
they spend. Time = money!
MikeD
I agree. Anyone who pays $ 20k for a paint job has more money than they need.
I have seen paint jobs that did
cost the owner $ 20k, especially
full size autos where the entire inside
and undercarriage were painted as well
as the exterior, underhood, INSIDE the doors, etc etc. These cars are trailered
from show to show of course.
This should not be the case with the GT40
due to it's limited surface area. Assuming the panels are good quality, $ 5000 should cover it assuming no other work is involved.
However if you ask the body shop to hang,
align, and make the gaps perfect, the cost
can escalate depending upon how much time
they spend. Time = money!
MikeD
Well I hate to tell you guys that don't belieive 20,000 can disappear on a paint job - try going to a few car shows and inquire. I did say show car quality when you started spending 8000 and up! Just for information I checked out a Safir 40 some years back at a SAAC convention here in California. It was absoulutly meticulous in its finish. Perfect caps (not normal on a 40), not an unfinished edge to be found anywhere, all edges radiused, all underhood/deck/doorfacings etc. done to exterior finish standarts. This cost the owner over 20,000 back then. Nobody is saying you have to spend, just that you can go that far if you feel like it.
I talked to the guy who's fixing my truck about theis little GT40 project and he said figure US$2500 to $4000 depending on what you want. He's done several cars that make the local shows and they look good. He shoots a coat of yellow primer first as he claims that shows up defects well in fiberglass. He sais you need to figure about a month for that price, but you can pay more if you want it faster.
