Ring and pinion

[Jim S.]

Guy's,

I'm not sure if anyone has considered this, but the Audi 5000s was available with a 5 cylinder Diesel. Due to the fact that diesels aren't typically Reved as hard as there Gas counter parts I would assume they had a lower numerical final drive or ring and pinion.

Has anyone checked into this? If the diesel used a 016 trans and has a better final ratio this might be a good option. Even if there hard to come by at least you could order a R&P and install it into a Gasoline 5000 trans.

Any info on this would be appreciated.

Thanks,

 

[Ron Earp]

Hey Jim,

It has been done and you'll find the box listed on the gearbox spreadsheets, the 3U. I brought a couple in from Europe a few years back and they were used in RF cars. They help considerably, but are not ideal. Using one of the new 3.17 or 3.22 R&Ps, can't remember which it is, would be much better.

R

 

[Mike Dozier]

Jim

The 3U uses 3.89 final drive...same as most 016 boxes.
And the pinion gear is integral with the countershaft...
making it an expensive set to manufacture.

Porsche 944 trannies are a similar box..and some came with 3.28 ring/pinions. Unfortunately no one has been able to install a Porsche R & P into the Audi box...including GTA.

So GTA now offers a 3.22 R & P (see Mitch's posts), but only as a turnkey since apparently machining the box is needed. I'm not sure why it that happened...but the end result is a somewhat expensive tranny. If I was an RF40 customer, I think I'd lean towards the 01E 6-speed instead.

Mike D

 

[Jim S.]

Mike,

Thanks for the info. I would personally like to investigate the 944 R&P. If I can come up with the 3.28 R&P out of a 944 for the right price maybe I'll do some research on why it won't work. If it needs to be slightly modified along with the case I'm not apposed to doing that.

I have the resources available to do the machining mods if needed. I realize some people don't and it makes it seem like an impossiblilty, but I've been told on most of the projects I've done that it won't work or seems impossible, but unless this gear is totally different than the one in the N5 box I'm sure it can be used. Just for the record I'm not implying that others that my have tried don't know what there doing. Most of the time it's just not having the equipment available to make machining mods. If I do come up with a cheaper solution I will gladly share it with the forum. I'm not out to make money, just want to save it for myself and others if I can.

BTW I agree that the current price seems alittle high just to better your final drive ratio. $2700.00? for a gear set? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Dave Decker]

Hello Mike. You say you'd lean towards an 01E 6 speed transaxle. Does anyone build an adapter for such a beast? Cheers, Dave

 

[Eric A.]

The problem with installing the 944 R&P in the 016 box seems to be with installing the gears on the pinion shaft. There are differences that make this impossible. The guys at GTA can explain what this is. If you buy a transaxle from them with the 3.22 R&P you are getting a completely rebuilt transaxle. There is another option that might become available before long that will be a complete set of gears to be installed in the 016 box that will change all of the gear ratios to make them better suited to a V8. Quaife is working on this project and hopefully they will have some word soon.

 

[Mike Dozier]

Jim

If you are interested in pursuing this further first hand,
I suggest you purchase a used 016 tranny, a used 944,
and compare the parts. With a little patience,
these can be had quite affordably from a wrecker or E-bay.

However only certain 944s came with the 3.28 final drive.
Maybe it was just the 944 turbo boxes? You can buy a new
3.28 gearset from GTA...last I heard it was about $ 1,000.
Used 944 boxes sell for WAY less...but not always with
the 3.28 ratio. Still...might tell you what you want to know.

Dave

RF40 sells the 01E kit...check out RF's Jan 16 thread in the manufacturer's announcement section.

MikeD

 

[Jac Mac]

Jim S, You could qualify as an honourary "Kiwi" with your work ethic and can do attitude. Keep it up. Regards Jack.

 

[Jim S.]

Guy's,
thanks for all the info and help. I just got my 016 5N box apart tonight. I would gladly buy an R&P from GTA, but they won't sell me one. The person I talked to said that if they did I wouldn't be able to figure it out and they weren't about to tell me what had to be machined because they've done all the engineering. I didn't even ask them for any info on what to machine, I just wanted to buy an R&P from them. I also think the price is much higher than $1000.00 for this R&P. If that's the case it's totally insane. So I'm going to further investigate the 944 R&P, might end up being a waste of time, but don't know until I look into it further.
The other thing that I'm working on is if Detroit Locker builds a TrueTrac that's close to the right size. The TrueTrac works the same as the Quaife units.

The big difference is TrueTracs aren't selling for $1300.00 I believe there around $500.00
I work for Eaton Corp. who just recently purchased the Detroit Locker line. So hopefully I can find some good technical info on an application that's close that could be modified to work.

Never know! I do know that some of these manufactures are way to proud of there parts, these prices are crazy.

If any of you have rebuilt the Getrag 016 where did you find a good Manual and where is the best place to get parts from?

Thanks again for all your help.
I will keep you posted as I find more out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Chris P.]

Please do keep us posted. I haven't busted my 5N open yet. I am shying away from modifying it since the money spent in parts and machining doesn't seem to justify it. Why would I want to machine it and make it potentially weaker, meanwhile spending money I could have used to buy a G50 unit with which is stronger anyway. PLUS, you get to flip the G50 over and lower the engine. However if some good idea does come along, I'm willing to explore it, but I'm not counting on it.

As for manuals, you can get a Haynes for the 5000 in used book stores for well under $10 - they show you how. I also got some scanned pages from a manual emailed to me but I think they are at work. I'll check monday.

Are you going to add an oiling system?

 

[Jim S.]

Chris,

I agree with you if I'm going to have to do 10 or 20 hrs of machining on it to change the R&P I too don't think it's worth it, but after taking it apart I don't really see anything that's looks really weak other than the back of the iron case where the taper roller pinion bearing is held from coming through the back. This can be quickly fixed with a support plate like what Jim Dinner built.
The rest looks quite stought!
I have a drag racing back ground and it used to be that you would never use a Ford C4 for heavy or high HP applications. People always used the C6. Now "Performance Automatic" or PA, builds a C4 using a standard case no roller bushings and it will withstand 1000HP and they sell it for $1300.00 with a life time warranty! I have one in my 78 Fairmont that has a 820HP S/C 460. The car weighs 3600 lbs. with me in it and the trans works great /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My point is if the only problem is that the rear of the iron case needs to be supported with a 1/4" plate and I can find a R&P for the right price without alot of Machining this might be a great Combination that no one really looked into far enough.

If I find out differently I will probably end up saving and watching for a Porche or ZF trans.


Thanks for your input /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Jim S.]

Chris,

I forgot to answer your question on the oiling system. I'm not sure what there doing on the ZF or others. Are they feeding oil to critical bearings or just simply drawing it out to cool it then pumping it back to the trans sump area? Also do you think I should do this?


Thanks,

 

[Mike Dozier]

Jim

GTA may have misunderstood you (?).
They should sell the 944 3.28 R&P to anyone since
that's available from any Porsche dealer.
Now maybe they were afraid yoou'd return it...

Anyway...if you just want to see if the Porsche R&P
can be made to fit..buy a broken 944 tranny locally on the cheap.

Regarding oiling system, there are several past threads
showing them on G50 s that will be raced. Essentially it's a pressurzed pump with individual nozzles for just the R&P or R&P and all the gears...not needed for street work.

Hershal has a diesel (3U) box and loves it.
I wish some of our European Members would ship some over...
but no one would...despite several requests.

MikeD

 

[Chris P.]

Jim - well that would be great if you find some good news on this. I myself don't know yet about the oiling. I just assumed cars like this will see the track now and then and since the 016 is at the edge of its envelope in this environment, it would probably need oiling. I suppose like Mike alluded to, the R&P is the #1 oiling point. Individual gears I don't know, probably if you are racing full time, but then you wouldn't be using the 016. My background is small HP formula ford stuff. I've rebuilt a Hewland mk9, that's about it.

Picking a point on the case to machine an oil line access hole would be very important. Didn't the 5000 turbo have a tranny oil pump?

 

[Jim S.]

Mike, when I said they wouldn't sell me one I meant the new 3.22 ratio. I should have been more specific, sorry about that. I'm sure they would sell me a porsche 3.28. On the porsche I'm going to try to get with a trans shop around here and hopefully just take a look at one and compare and see what I think.

Chris and Mike, I will look into those threads and see if I can find one about the oiling systems, then sort it out.

Man I'm glad I don't have the Kit yet. I don't recall who said it on this forum, but they were right about getting the engine and trans figured out then buy the kit after you know that part.
I've still have this year to figure it all out, then I will be placing an order with Fran at RCR.
He's right in Michigan where I at and he's only about an hour and 15 min. away. I love his work. I'm a CNC 5-axis programer and machinist so I really love his approach. I also do alot of Aluminum TIG welding so this whole Chassis is really exciting to me.

Thanks for all your help guys.

PS if you come across any info that you think would help me please PM me.

Take care.

 

[andys]

Jim,

I've seen a few posts mention a Porashce 3.28 R&P. To my knowlege, the 951 (944 Turbo) used a 3.375 R&P, and I have seen no reference to anything of a lower numrical ratio than that; again, to my knowlege.

You might try the local POCA, or more specifically, the 951 racers. They often swap out the 3.375 R&P for the 3.89 version (std. 944) for improved track gearing. Who knows, maybe someone has one sitting in their race shop gathering dust.

Did you speak with John @ GTA? I can't imagine he wouldn't sell you a 3.375 Porsche R&P. BTW, I was the one that encouraged him to take a hard look at determining the fit for the Porsche R&P into the 016. He was pretty specific with regard to the challenges he came up against, I just don't recall them off-hand. Search this forum, and you may uncover some previous posts on this subject.

Andys

 

[Mike Dozier]

Andy

You're probably right about ratio being 3.38 and not 3.28
as I mentioned....I was too lazy to go back and read the old
threads. And Jim tried to buy the "new" R&P only from GTA...
not the Porsche gears. So that explains it.
It's too bad they aren't an easy swap.

MikeD

 

[Jim S.]

Mike, Andy, I looked for about 1-1/2 hrs last night and didn't find those threads. I'm not the greatest person at searching, but I kinda said the heck with it after looking that long.
I'm going to try to get a look at the Porsche pinion if I can find one close to my area. I'll put a post out on a Porsche sight to see if one of the racers has one laying around.

I've looked over the inside of the trans pretty extensive and I can get oil gallery passages to all of the bearings and the two gears at the back of the trans 5th gear I believe. I still haven't got my tranny manual yet. Need it for preload info and other specs.

On the R&P that GTA is using I figured out why you have to machine the housing. Right now the pinion gear just barely passes through the bearing race or cup. By going to a lower numerically ratio the pinion gear has more teeth and gets bigger, so they must be going with a bigger bearing so the new pinion can pass through it. To do this the OD of the race must be bigger so they machine the case for this. This is not a big deal, "BUT" after doing this you have to get the preload set up again on the two tapered roller bearing on the pinion shaft, then you have to get the pinion depth set right. This is what makes it trick, not impossible, but trick.

The way I will do it is just put the pinion back in with out the input shaft and other gears to keep it simple. Then get the pinion depth set right by shimming the front bearing race or cup, once it is shimmed right then I will set the preload by shimming the rear bearing race.

I might try to get a 3.22 R&P from GTA again, but they weren't interested the last time. I'm not sure why, it's a sale no matter how you rap it. I’m definitely not their competition, I'm just a guy trying to save money because I like doing this kind of fabing for myself.

I'll keep you posted.

take care.

 

[Mitch D]

Jim S - it sounds like you have considerable knowledge and no doubt you will come up with some solution for your needs. If you're using your own sweat equity to save yourself some money, then I say "more power to you." You may indeed figure out how to make the Porsche R&P work just fine. I remember reading plenty about such efforts on this forum and noone was ever able to come up with a final solution with the Porsche R&P at some reasonable cost.

As for the new custom R&P, it's my opinion that GTA is not going to give in and sell you one of the custom 3.22 R&P's stand-alone. You have to remember, GTA (German Trans of America) is a business and they make the majority of their money doing rebuilds and trading on their "knowledge" - not parts. It appears this is simply the way they choose to do business, and it's their call to do things their way. Look again at the pricing for the three options GTA offers - do you notice that the Quaif LSD appears to be sold to the customer at cost? (2005 pricing: option 1 is $2695 and option 2 is $3995). GTA doesn't appear to try to make money on parts.

At what price do you think you should be able to get one of the new R&P's? Remember that nothing was available anywhere in the world so I set out with GTA to develop something (I funded the effort). Cost is subject to units produced and selling price is subject to the number of units projected to be sold - pretty simple economics really. I think people need to forget about this thing being a couple hundred dollar item - there's just not that much demand.

Keep up your efforts, this thread is very interesting reading for many people.

Mitch D

 

[andys]

Jim,

Here's the link to the thread regarding some discussions of the 944T R&P. Your observations of the pinion gear has jogged my memory; seems that's the same thing John @ GTA mentioned. He told he was going to machine a case to accept the larger pinion bearing and gear head, but I don't know what happened after that nor the reason why it never came to fruition.

http://www.gt40s.com/ubbthreads/showflat...=true#Post48514

Andys