shoot down my trans idea..

[paolo]

would it be concievable to take a regular trans, say a 6 speed modular camaro unit pictured, take internal components from the diff and insert them inbetween the bell housing and the gear cluster in an intermediary housing?
i realise its, its spinning the wrong way and the output shaft is pointing in the wrong direction and a host of other problems...

however as a way to get all the gear cluster in a housing with a shifter output shaft + a sperate clutch and bell housing it would be easier and cheaper than starting from scratch to make a series production unit?

comments constructive or otherwise please

 

[Jac Mac]

Have a look for a thread titled 'All [most] all American Transaxle' on this -Powertrain/Transaxles forum & also under 'New RCR Transaxle' to check the latest 100day weekly update from Fran, you might find a few others to stand with while your getting shot down...

 

[David in Durango]

Kar Kraft did this in the sixties for the Lemans program. there are more things to think about than you might imagine . . . .

 

[Mike Huddart]

Back in the early sixties a chap called Bob McKee made his own transaxle using an upside down Borg Warner T10, behind his own diff housing a Ford 9" diff and Halibrand quick change gears. Other than his own Can Am cars quite a few US racers used them including Shelby for the King Cobra.
I actually came accross one here in the UK a couple of years ago in the back of a Chevy engined Cooper Monaco.
Mike

 

[DeLynn]

Mike,

Is this what you are looking for...



If you will revew the thread 850QC you will find the gearbox I did in the 90's..

also look for updates on the New RCR Transaxle..

DeLynn

 

[Mike Huddart]

Mike,

Is this what you are looking for...

View attachment 53420

If you will revew the thread 850QC you will find the gearbox I did in the 90's..

also look for updates on the New RCR Transaxle..

DeLynn

Nothing as sophisticated as that, the McKee trans used a T10 almost in its entirety mounted almost upside down so the input shaft went under the diff and to the righthand side. In place of the tail housing he had a housing with Halibrand quick change gears going up stairs with a shaft going through what would be the bottom of the T10 and to the pinion which came in from the rear.
Hope you followed all that !
The Sadler rear engined sports racers of the late fifties had a similar set up using a Halibrand quick change but with an extended housing and an extra gear set, making a neat two speed tranaxle.
Mike

 

[Jac Mac]

McKee Transaxle, just google McKee Transaxle photos & you get lots of interesting Can Am type stuff plus lots of other pretty young things to look at....... Looks more like a Quick Change R&P, dont remember any mention of a Ford 9" R&P.

 

[DeLynn]

This gearbox dose not have a reverse...

Size maters,,, and in a mid-engine car short is better...

Belive me when I say,, I have tried to skin this cat every possibe way....

AND I have had help from lots of the guys on this form....

This number one issue with the Trimac is, the oil requirments...
The Ring and Pinion requires an EP oil... and the Trimac uses ATF...
You can seal the two units ... but that requires space....

Longer is not Better

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

McKee Transaxle, just google McKee Transaxle photos & you get lots of interesting Can Am type stuff plus lots of other pretty young things to look at....... Looks more like a Quick Change R&P, dont remember any mention of a Ford 9" R&P.

Like this?

The r&p is a Ford 9"

 

[Mike Huddart]

Jac,
I've got some period blurb on them and McKee used his own diff case with a Ford diff and ring and pinion but you could also get it with a ZF limited slip. It all worked very well apparently, winning quite a lot of races.
If you google Parnelli Jones King Cobra you should find a great picture of the rear end with a Webered 289 and the "T10 " sticking out the back.
As I said I have actually seen one in the raw and a lovely piece it was.
Mike

 

[Jac Mac]

Rick, Mike, in Ricks attachment of the Kellison stuff the pinion would appear to be 'on center' spiral bevel, not hypoid as per the 9" so that would have to be a Ford R&P from a truck which was the basis for all the QC rear ends. I will have a look into the PJ King Cobra pics, be interested to see if they actually did use a 9".. If nothing else the price of that Kellison piece looks attractive, but a $ went much further then...

Mike, this pic??

 

[Mike Huddart]

Jac,
that's the one, looks a bit over restored but at least you can see the trans.
Mc Kee listed theirs at "under $2000" so very similar to the Kellison
Mike

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Rick, Mike, in Ricks attachment of the Kellison stuff the pinion would appear to be 'on center' spiral bevel, not hypoid as per the 9" so that would have to be a Ford R&P from a truck which was the basis for all the QC rear ends. I will have a look into the PJ King Cobra pics, be interested to see if they actually did use a 9".. If nothing else the price of that Kellison piece looks attractive, but a $ went much further then...

Mike, this pic??

$1725 was a lot of scratch in 1970. The Ford Pinto when introduced in September 1970 was base priced at $1919.00. Shelby sold ZF dash 1s for around $2500 then.

 

[DeLynn]

The Kellison used a 9 " ring gear .. BUT it was made for ford 1/2 truck of that time...
The King Cobra looks like a V8 center section..

It is not the same Ford 9' that we use today in NASCAR racing..

Is was a Spiral Bevel.
It was turned into the V8 Quick Change rearend...
It uses a 6 spline QC gear set... and is rated at 600 hp today..
When the ring and pinion is made from 9310..

All the gray haired racers I know said ,
"stay away from the six spine rearends" " they will not hold up" ..

The quick change we hold as the Standard today, is a 10" ring gear w/ 1.25 X 10 spline gear sets... on a 3.5 center line... and it is a beast...

BUT the housing is amost 15" front to back...

 

[DeLynn]

Here is a good look at the 9" R&P

Ring & Pinion Gears for Halibrand Quick Change - Speedway Motors, America's Oldest Speed Shop

DeLynn

 

[paolo]

sooo...
back to the question for all the experts, if i were to look at using a stock transmission as a starting point to create a transaxle with a gear stack after the axle would it be best to reconfigure a camaro transmission which looks pretty compact in the first post pic or reconfigure a corvette transaxle?

 

[DeLynn]

What are the space requirements,,,,
Where do the CVs need to be in relation to the crank Center Line..
How much room do you have from the Center of the CV to the back of the Block..
How much space do you have after the CV.. (CV to the rear of the car..)

I think you will find, that both units require more space than you have...

The reason being, In order to keep the oils from mixing , requires more space than you have..
These are the limiting facts of the transaxle design...
Unless your space is unlimited.

Both of these units have the same gear stacks inside.
SO one is not better than the other.. (other than maybe ratios)

 

[Ron Earp]

It'll be far less expensive, and less time consuming, for you to just jump on a good Porsche gear box when you find one in the $3k to $4k range.

 

[Jack]

I agree with Ron.
For the cost, it's hard to beat a 930 for a V-8 application.
Gear ratio's are pretty good as is. 9.0" ring gear and all.

 

[Jac Mac]

would it be concievable to take a regular trans, say a 6 speed modular camaro unit pictured, take internal components from the diff and insert them inbetween the bell housing and the gear cluster in an intermediary housing? Yes it would, in fact in some of the posts since your thread starter should clarify that for you)
i realise its, its spinning the wrong way and the output shaft is pointing in the wrong direction and a host of other problems...(This where you will get into trouble especially with helical cut gears as rotating the opposite direction reverses ALL the thrust loads which the original may not have the strength reqd to absorb...)

however as a way to get all the gear cluster in a housing with a shifter output shaft + a sperate clutch and bell housing it would be easier and cheaper than starting from scratch to make a series production unit? [[[ That would depend on how you went about it & how many you hoped to or could sell and more important how much you were able to do yourself....change one thing & the list of other things to change gets bigger, not smaller in this game.. I know several people that have looked at that late model vette stuff & thought the same as you.... but the more I looked the less I liked it.... ]]]

comments constructive or otherwise please

For me personally in regard to transaxles I see it being divided up into about five seperate sections;
GT40 MK1............ ZF or a Colloti [ actually Im surprised that no-one has built a Colloti replica yrt, it would be relatively simple to improve upon, just shows what getting a bad name first time around does for future variants. Yet Shelby & co vastly inproved that reliability with the help of the gear Guru's at Ford.

GT40 MKII & MKIV.. T44

GT40 Replicas-or any replica make/type for that matter...... Zf, ZFQ, Porsche ...anything that fits & places crank C/L below output shafts and doesnt have shifter etc out rear of bodywork. This really comes down to how much the builder wants to retain the GT40 'look'.[ I realise this might upset the Audi brigade, but having to fit the motor in a 'nose down' attitude, or adopt incorrect halfshaft lengths/angles from the outset will just cause you more grief in the future as you add more power etc]

Stuff like SLC, GTM, Ultima, with no fixed 'period look', these cars can have virtually anything depending on end use & drivers tastes, but the ones that actually get finished will most likely have 930 porsche or similar as Ron & Jack have pointed out.

However, as always this is just my opinion, its just that after 60 odd years topside I am starting to begrudge doing it right the first time let alone doing it wrong three times!!!!

The number of mid or rear engined kit cars that get 90% done with the remaining 10% being the drive line because the builder puts it in the 'too hard' basket is fairly high..