I will check with the show guys but I fear not...
Superlite GTA
- Thread starter karlo
- Start date
Here's my partial list of personal pros/cons of the 2 power options. Waiting to see some details on how things will fit in the car before finalizing.
4G63T/Mitsu 5spd -
Pros: Lighter, Plenty of Aftermarket Parts and Support, Smaller overall pkg
Cons: Older, Less power/torque stock, Would require being pushed further to get to desired hp/tq levels, Possibly costlier due to requiring more mods, More complicated plumbing & cooling
LS4/4T65E-HD -
Pros: Higher hp/tq to start with stock, V8 sound!, Less complex plumbing (no I/C, turbo), Possibly cheaper due to less mods required to get to goals, paddle shift could be easily done and fun
Cons: Heavier, Not much aftermarket, Known tranny problems w/o good build, TapShift liked by some and hated by others
For me, since the Apex would be getting built from kit and the engine has to come out of the DSM even if reusing the 7 bolt, plus I would want an essentially "new" car, I could picture building the new engine up from the block. That gives the opportunity for something like going stroker 2.3L for the 4G63, but of course such things add cost. At minimum, I think it would be torn down and rebuilt fresh with spiffed up OEM replacement parts.
4G63T/Mitsu 5spd -
Pros: Lighter, Plenty of Aftermarket Parts and Support, Smaller overall pkg
Cons: Older, Less power/torque stock, Would require being pushed further to get to desired hp/tq levels, Possibly costlier due to requiring more mods, More complicated plumbing & cooling
LS4/4T65E-HD -
Pros: Higher hp/tq to start with stock, V8 sound!, Less complex plumbing (no I/C, turbo), Possibly cheaper due to less mods required to get to goals, paddle shift could be easily done and fun
Cons: Heavier, Not much aftermarket, Known tranny problems w/o good build, TapShift liked by some and hated by others
For me, since the Apex would be getting built from kit and the engine has to come out of the DSM even if reusing the 7 bolt, plus I would want an essentially "new" car, I could picture building the new engine up from the block. That gives the opportunity for something like going stroker 2.3L for the 4G63, but of course such things add cost. At minimum, I think it would be torn down and rebuilt fresh with spiffed up OEM replacement parts.
As much as I love the idea of the V8, I think I would have to go with the 4G63 for many of the same reasons Tom mentioned as well as:
Tons of aftermarket support
Tons of detailed how-to's
Very easy engine/tranny to work on and manage
600-700 reliable hp at the wheels is very attainable if you have the coin. This power can also be had with a very linear power/torque curve with a compound turbo setup too (My compound turbo set-up - DSM Forums) and the transmissions can support it with a relatively low build cost.
The big question is how much room will the engine bay have for plumbing? Fran, any chance on some engine bay pics???
Tons of aftermarket support
Tons of detailed how-to's
Very easy engine/tranny to work on and manage
600-700 reliable hp at the wheels is very attainable if you have the coin. This power can also be had with a very linear power/torque curve with a compound turbo setup too (My compound turbo set-up - DSM Forums) and the transmissions can support it with a relatively low build cost.
The big question is how much room will the engine bay have for plumbing? Fran, any chance on some engine bay pics???
I know i am new to this thread... BUT.. I just can't stand listening to all this nonsense talk about "4 bangers"! I am no jap import tuner fan, but writing off everything but a v8 is beyond ignorant, especially making this wild assumptions that because something has 4 cylinders that is inferior by default. Or just doesn't have the ___(insert silly reason here)___ that a v8 has..
Let me point you to exhibit A -
This is a little build called the max-4. a 4000hp integra!
4000 HP Acura Integra - YouTube
So I think you can make power with only 4cyl to work with... But perhaps showing off an enginerring masterpiece like the MAX-4 is just a moot point, so how about real world performance? Drivability? useable power? Sound...
well here's what a 4g63 can be like in a street car. that ls4 may have some low end torque, but i don't see it spinning to 9000rpm so effortlessly!
Anyways.. enjoy this video of a buschur racing evo, don't forget to imagine what something like this would be like in a car that weighs 1000lbs less than the evo in the vid! ENJOY!
Bad Bish on the streets - YouTube
The 4g63 is not a compromise of a motor.. do you think fran in all of his infinite wisdom would choose a platform that was just a "compromise"?? Do you think it was an accident he chose this? I mean i think it's genius.. and I hate to see people getting swayed to an ls4 with some lame $***box auto trans that will make for a poor excuse for a high performance car, when for less money they could have a supercar. And all these comments about ferrari and lamborghini switching to paddle shifts.. IT"S NOT THE SAME THING!! Those are sequential gearboxes, and dual clutch gear boxes, a whole different world from a GM sourced automatic. Yes you could put paddles on it.. but just think back to the last time you switched your automatic to "manual shift" ... it was pretty lame wasnt it? I bet you even thought to yourself "why do they even put these silly manual shift buttons, or paddlers on this car, Who uses these?"
Maybe i'm wrong.. and I know, to each his own... there is an ass for every seat, and i could never tell someone else what will make them happy. But what i hear is i want the muscle and performance and intoxicating sound..
And what i'm trying to convey is..
the 4g63 has been documented to make well over a 1000hp in AWD applications.. i believe the evo that holds the standing mile record is in the 1300awhp neighborhood. So there's your muscle!
Some of these builds are good for 12,000rpm!! and i've seen tons that spin to 9-10k! Mix that with 30-40lbs of boost, an atmospheric wastegate and a nice BOV... if that sound doesnt intoxicate you, well.. you may want to check your pulse or perhaps look into a new hobby outside of cars..
I'm going to end this rant by saying.. one of my last cars was a Noble M400. Truly an awesome car that i still believe is one of the best performance bargains EVER! And my car made about 480whp.. and was roughly the same weigh as this car is projected to be. The reason i didn't mod it further, and the reason you don't see ANY nobles much past the 650whp mark is because all of us got stuck with a crap drivetrain! A motor that 'could' make power, but a trans that simply could not take it, and more cooling issues than you could shake a stick at. And all i remember hearing was talk about swapping something else in there.. but there were no options (alhtough i believe turbohoses is in the process of creating a LS swap, but i digress) It was a bummer, and that was a kit car that i had $60,000 in initial purchase plus mods.. but if i didn't have another 60-70k there would be no building an even 600whp car.
Now fast forward. Fran has designed a platform that will allow you to have a 500hp 2400lb mid engine monster for under 30k. This is possible because of smart drivetrain choices. The noble community would have killed to have these kinds of options.. the aftermarket support the 4g63 has. It's only been around for 20+ years! It's durable.. super strong.. and can be repaired or modified for very very low cost..
So before you just automatically jump into a ls4 because its a v8 and i don't want nuthin but a v8.. Give Fran some credit, and dive a little deeper into considering just a little old 2.0l 4 banger...
=)
Let me point you to exhibit A -
This is a little build called the max-4. a 4000hp integra!
4000 HP Acura Integra - YouTube
So I think you can make power with only 4cyl to work with... But perhaps showing off an enginerring masterpiece like the MAX-4 is just a moot point, so how about real world performance? Drivability? useable power? Sound...
well here's what a 4g63 can be like in a street car. that ls4 may have some low end torque, but i don't see it spinning to 9000rpm so effortlessly!
Anyways.. enjoy this video of a buschur racing evo, don't forget to imagine what something like this would be like in a car that weighs 1000lbs less than the evo in the vid! ENJOY!
Bad Bish on the streets - YouTube
The 4g63 is not a compromise of a motor.. do you think fran in all of his infinite wisdom would choose a platform that was just a "compromise"?? Do you think it was an accident he chose this? I mean i think it's genius.. and I hate to see people getting swayed to an ls4 with some lame $***box auto trans that will make for a poor excuse for a high performance car, when for less money they could have a supercar. And all these comments about ferrari and lamborghini switching to paddle shifts.. IT"S NOT THE SAME THING!! Those are sequential gearboxes, and dual clutch gear boxes, a whole different world from a GM sourced automatic. Yes you could put paddles on it.. but just think back to the last time you switched your automatic to "manual shift" ... it was pretty lame wasnt it? I bet you even thought to yourself "why do they even put these silly manual shift buttons, or paddlers on this car, Who uses these?"
Maybe i'm wrong.. and I know, to each his own... there is an ass for every seat, and i could never tell someone else what will make them happy. But what i hear is i want the muscle and performance and intoxicating sound..
And what i'm trying to convey is..
the 4g63 has been documented to make well over a 1000hp in AWD applications.. i believe the evo that holds the standing mile record is in the 1300awhp neighborhood. So there's your muscle!
Some of these builds are good for 12,000rpm!! and i've seen tons that spin to 9-10k! Mix that with 30-40lbs of boost, an atmospheric wastegate and a nice BOV... if that sound doesnt intoxicate you, well.. you may want to check your pulse or perhaps look into a new hobby outside of cars..
I'm going to end this rant by saying.. one of my last cars was a Noble M400. Truly an awesome car that i still believe is one of the best performance bargains EVER! And my car made about 480whp.. and was roughly the same weigh as this car is projected to be. The reason i didn't mod it further, and the reason you don't see ANY nobles much past the 650whp mark is because all of us got stuck with a crap drivetrain! A motor that 'could' make power, but a trans that simply could not take it, and more cooling issues than you could shake a stick at. And all i remember hearing was talk about swapping something else in there.. but there were no options (alhtough i believe turbohoses is in the process of creating a LS swap, but i digress) It was a bummer, and that was a kit car that i had $60,000 in initial purchase plus mods.. but if i didn't have another 60-70k there would be no building an even 600whp car.
Now fast forward. Fran has designed a platform that will allow you to have a 500hp 2400lb mid engine monster for under 30k. This is possible because of smart drivetrain choices. The noble community would have killed to have these kinds of options.. the aftermarket support the 4g63 has. It's only been around for 20+ years! It's durable.. super strong.. and can be repaired or modified for very very low cost..
So before you just automatically jump into a ls4 because its a v8 and i don't want nuthin but a v8.. Give Fran some credit, and dive a little deeper into considering just a little old 2.0l 4 banger...
=)
At least 10 times for me. I was really hoping to see this car in Pittsburgh
I'm going to end this rant by saying.. one of my last cars was a Noble M400. Truly an awesome car that i still believe is one of the best performance bargains EVER!
I had a Noble M400 also as well as a variety of 911 turbos along the blah blah way. I'm quite interested in the Apex and hoping to see similar performance to the Noble from it. Driving the Noble, I'd be on the highway and think, 'I'd like to be... THERE!' Poof. There I'd be. Magic.
I had a Noble M400 also as well as a variety of 911 turbos along the blah blah way. I'm quite interested in the Apex and hoping to see similar performance to the Noble from it. Driving the Noble, I'd be on the highway and think, 'I'd like to be... THERE!' Poof. There I'd be. Magic.
I deserved that.. i guess soaking up all 40 pages this afternoon got me all worked up... LMAO..
What i meant to say is.. "Why caaaan't we put uh dem der NASCAR moturs ene it?"
=)
Brad, I agree with some of what you are saying.
What concerns me most with going 4G63 is 6 bolts are 20+ years old now, so I'm going to be tearing it down entirely, and while I'm a complete noob to this and not clear yet how it's done in practice, it seems like anything reliable, daily driver, going to last multiple tens of thousands of miles, and in the 400+hp range is going to add up really quickly in terms of cost. If I put $20K into the Apex kit, then $6-8K on the motor doesn't leave much for tires, paint, exhaust, interior, and so on and still keep it even below $35K.
Part of the problem I have in researching this is the DSM forums seem to be chock full of folks who want to make X hp and not spend more than $20 and their buddy will do such and such for them and the XYZ brand of (BOV, WG, IC, Turbo, whatever) is the best and the only one they want. Everyone also seems to be almost completely into drag racing. I have zero desire to do that. I want a solid sports car, it'll see an occasional track day, and it should excel on twisty roads (I have lots of those). I'm old enough to generally want to avoid tickets! It's very hard from the forums to find what that equation works out to. It's possible on the various supplier websites to spend $15K getting there though!
I really like the idea of 4G63 and keeping it light and nimble, plus a 5 spd. Having a hard time getting over it not sounding real nice and still being street legal on Ca. 91 octane, spending less than a gazillion on the motor but still having it what I want, and that getting that motor to 400 or so is doubling where it starts. At least the LS4 is only going up by 30-50% to get to 400-450. (p.s. I'm not stuck on that power level, just thinking it would provide the hp/lb to give the performance I think I want.)
What concerns me most with going 4G63 is 6 bolts are 20+ years old now, so I'm going to be tearing it down entirely, and while I'm a complete noob to this and not clear yet how it's done in practice, it seems like anything reliable, daily driver, going to last multiple tens of thousands of miles, and in the 400+hp range is going to add up really quickly in terms of cost. If I put $20K into the Apex kit, then $6-8K on the motor doesn't leave much for tires, paint, exhaust, interior, and so on and still keep it even below $35K.
Part of the problem I have in researching this is the DSM forums seem to be chock full of folks who want to make X hp and not spend more than $20 and their buddy will do such and such for them and the XYZ brand of (BOV, WG, IC, Turbo, whatever) is the best and the only one they want. Everyone also seems to be almost completely into drag racing. I have zero desire to do that. I want a solid sports car, it'll see an occasional track day, and it should excel on twisty roads (I have lots of those). I'm old enough to generally want to avoid tickets! It's very hard from the forums to find what that equation works out to. It's possible on the various supplier websites to spend $15K getting there though!
I really like the idea of 4G63 and keeping it light and nimble, plus a 5 spd. Having a hard time getting over it not sounding real nice and still being street legal on Ca. 91 octane, spending less than a gazillion on the motor but still having it what I want, and that getting that motor to 400 or so is doubling where it starts. At least the LS4 is only going up by 30-50% to get to 400-450. (p.s. I'm not stuck on that power level, just thinking it would provide the hp/lb to give the performance I think I want.)
I get it and I don't think anyone doubts that you can make the power with a V4/6/8 or whatever else. It's all about the individual and sometimes it's not all about the HP. Some people, like myself, just prefer the sound of a V8. Yes, the sound of a car can actually ruin an experience for some people. I respect what the Mitsubishi motors can do but I am highly annoyed with the noise they make.
It is quite simple actually.... For dollars spent and HP and torques received you can not beat the investment.
Sure ricer displacement can make power, but it never makes the torque and it never has stellar longevity. Also look at the body of resources and support for such engines. They are niche market segment items.
Now lets bypass the small V 4's and 6's and lets go directly to something note-worthy... AKA V10's and 12's, or maybe even a flat plain cranked Cosworth.
For a short period of time while living in OZ I helped several guys with there twin turbo Toyota buggy motors; and way back in the day I did some smaller Toyota Pikes Peak motor builds. Now great power can be had from such engines no matter the brand, 800+.... But at the end of the day they are all the same --> HP per $, per hour spent wrenching is very high.
Nascar is "Ghey". But bolt a well built V8 in a super car and you have a recipe for fasts and cool.
Last edited:
I check this thread about 3 times a day. I am keeping my fingers crossed that it makes it to Pittsburgh.
Mr. Wolfe
Mr. Wolfe
I am sorry, i don't want to do anything in this thread to take away from this super cool new creation from Fran and RCR. I think debating between 4 and 8 cylinders is not a debate worth having. i mean, there is nothing sweeter than a high revving v8.. think ferrari 360, or bmw s65(e90 m3 engine), or the audi rs4. They don't even belong in the same league as something like a 4g63.
Just in this application, cost/power/performance.. the 4g63 is perfect.
Tom, i completely understand where you are coming from, and yes the community surrounding some of these budget boost motors, if you will, is notorious for a bunch of ghetto rigged rides. but making the parts and money you have work is what hot rodding is all about and if you look at the same situation from the flip side.. All of those guys that have spent so much time not only developing these motors from a high end shop perspective, but also disecting these motors and learning them wel enough to make all this power on such tight budgets has resulted in a wealth of available information.
I just have to believe with a $35k budget, you could easily have a built 4g63 apex, making 450-500 on pump gas. It may take some homework if you really want to get maximum bang for your buck. But its there, and from what i've seen, there will be plenty of guys building these cars that have the expertise with these mitsu engines to help guide the rest of us in parts and build decisions. Thank goodness for communities like this one, maybe it will save you from trying to decipher what to use from some 16 y/o on the dsm forums using their allowances to mod their cars! lmao!
Bottom line is this is a great car, with tons of potential! And i can't wait to see more as it develops!
Just in this application, cost/power/performance.. the 4g63 is perfect.
Tom, i completely understand where you are coming from, and yes the community surrounding some of these budget boost motors, if you will, is notorious for a bunch of ghetto rigged rides. but making the parts and money you have work is what hot rodding is all about and if you look at the same situation from the flip side.. All of those guys that have spent so much time not only developing these motors from a high end shop perspective, but also disecting these motors and learning them wel enough to make all this power on such tight budgets has resulted in a wealth of available information.
I just have to believe with a $35k budget, you could easily have a built 4g63 apex, making 450-500 on pump gas. It may take some homework if you really want to get maximum bang for your buck. But its there, and from what i've seen, there will be plenty of guys building these cars that have the expertise with these mitsu engines to help guide the rest of us in parts and build decisions. Thank goodness for communities like this one, maybe it will save you from trying to decipher what to use from some 16 y/o on the dsm forums using their allowances to mod their cars! lmao!
Bottom line is this is a great car, with tons of potential! And i can't wait to see more as it develops!
I'm interested to see under the skin for lots of reasons. I too need to make sure the seat will go back far enough for taller folks (6'3").
I'm assuming front mount radiator w/ lines running through the tunnel, that leaves the question of where to put the intercooler and piping. I'm guessing it would get air from one of the cabin-side vents near the fuel filler? One side is Intake and the other Intercooler?
Not really excited by the sounds of turbo 4's I've found online, but I guess it also remains to be seen since the exhaust routing on this car will be unique to it.
I'm assuming front mount radiator w/ lines running through the tunnel, that leaves the question of where to put the intercooler and piping. I'm guessing it would get air from one of the cabin-side vents near the fuel filler? One side is Intake and the other Intercooler?
Not really excited by the sounds of turbo 4's I've found online, but I guess it also remains to be seen since the exhaust routing on this car will be unique to it.
6 3' WILL fit no problem..part of the design is to allow bigger guys space to move..
intercoolers will indeed mount in the rear of the car not in the front...
Coolant lines will under the car in the center tunnel area
intercoolers will indeed mount in the rear of the car not in the front...
Coolant lines will under the car in the center tunnel area
