Superlite GTA

X2 on the Subaru 4 banger sounding like crap.... They all sound like they are running on 3 cylinders...

Hey take that back! The Triumph 3 cylinder sportbikes sound great with proper exhaust! Better than the 4 pot bikes even. I was thinking of getting one just for the sound it emits.

Yes, yes I know you were saying a 4 cylinder that is firing 1 pot short :) And yes I totally agree the Sooobies sound like poo.
 
Actually, all my friends and I always said the subaru engine sounds like they are misfiring the whole time, hence for that "loopy" exhaust sound...
 
Im eagerly watching this unfold. Great work so far.

I'm assuming that you plan to run a fwd trans, or do you expect to use the awd with a block off for the transfer case output? The AWD trans is more stout, but in an application like this I don't see it having much issue at all. FWIW a simple Evo 3 16g turbo has put down over 400awhp, so it would have no issues reaching 400whp in a car like this with a full spool of around 2700-3k with a total cost of around 500 bucks. The capability of these engines in factory form is tremendous, and the aftermarket is absurdly large.
 
Im eagerly watching this unfold. Great work so far.

I'm assuming that you plan to run a fwd trans, or do you expect to use the awd with a block off for the transfer case output? The AWD trans is more stout, but in an application like this I don't see it having much issue at all. FWIW a simple Evo 3 16g turbo has put down over 400awhp, so it would have no issues reaching 400whp in a car like this with a full spool of around 2700-3k with a total cost of around 500 bucks. The capability of these engines in factory form is tremendous, and the aftermarket is absurdly large.
I believe that Fran said that the awd trans would work with a quick mod to it... I'm assuming its a block off type thing for the transfer case but not sure. I don't know much about the dsm engines. I posted in this thread asking if anyone could comment more on the mods and cost to get to 400 whp. Glad to see you post up. So you're saying that about $500 would get you a reliable 400 whp on an eve 3 engine? Any idea on the 4g63 from the eclipses/talons?
 
500 dollars wouldn't be all that it needs, but that turbo is certainly capable. I worked with DSMs for about 10 years before parting the car out two years ago. A number of pics of my old car/setup can be seen here:

Index of /pictures/Misc Pics

Basically you have two flavors of traditional 4g63 engines, a 6bolt and a 7bolt. The bolt number refers to the amount of bolts located on the crankshaft where the flywheel connects. 7bolts had a notorious crankwalk issue that happens from time to time, but technically the block itself is more stout. In factory form these engines handle 400awhp with ease, with the highest I've seen being 610awhp from a complete stock longblock minus head studs. The transmission should be more than up to the task at those power levels in such a lightweight 2wd application. You would want a clutch upgrade, but you would be dealing with a 300 dollar new ACT 2100/2600 style clutch. The 1995-1999 cylinder head is the ideal head for direct flow to the intake valves, and provides the best across the board power. In factory form the engines can rev to 8k fairly consistantly with a factory redline of 7k. The fuel injectors are 440cc from the factory, so they would need to be upgraded, but at 400whp you are looking at very cheap injectors, likely on the order of 150 bucks for set. DSMlink is a great option to keep a factory-like idle and startup conditions while still offering speed density tuning with datalogging. DSMlink is simply a chipped factory ECU that allows programming by the end user and runs all of 500 bucks.

Stock head
Stock block
ARP standard headstuds
Stock exhaust manifold
Stock intake manifold
650cc injectors
DSMlink
ACT 2600 clutch
Evo 3 16g turbo

That would be what I would consider all that is needed to run 400whp. This is assuming that you would already be running a custom intake, intercooler, and exhaust setup since this is a kit car. Most of those parts I listed are stock, and you can likely get away for a while without most of those and keep it even cheaper.

Im glad to hear he's planning to run an AWD trans as they are stronger. There are companies out there that offer the fwd trans adaptation, but basically it requires welding the center diff, and blocking off the output shaft to the transfer case. Transmissions for these cars are fairly cheap and should have zero problem holding this kind of power. For those of you who don't mind running an auto trans, the DSM auto trans holds legendary amounts of power and is capable of damn near 9 second time slips on a DSM in almost factory form. In a car like this I would imagine it would be unbreakable and the car would scream out of the hole with the smaller turbos it would be forced to run.

What's the estimated weight of the end product? 2000lbs? I've been watching the FFR 818 but this car catches my eye heavily.
 
For what its worth the Evo 1-3 all ran a DSM style 6bolt engine. They came with a evo 3 16g turbo, 550cc injectors, and a few other small odds and ends such as a dual runner intake manifold (not the best manifold IMO but it sells for a good 100 bucks on the market all day long). 6bolt engines had 7.8:1 CR, 7bolts had 8.5:1. The iron block and crank take all the abuse you'd ever throw at them. 6bolt rods are slightly beefier than 7bolt rods, but to put 8.5:1 stock pistons on you'd need to rebush the rods due to wrist pins (22mm vs 21mm). Some cheapskates go that route but you'd be better off going with a set of eagle rods and wiseco pistons which can be had for all of 650 bucks as a set if you want a bulletproof bottom end on this type of car. With proper L19 headstuds and a Mitsu MLS headgasket you can boost the hell out of these engines. I personally was running 43psi by the end on with Crower rods and Ross pistons (Ideally would choose Wiseco HD pistons which cost only a fraction more but offer a MUCH improved design with ultra beefy wrist pins and very deep/large valve reliefs for folks who want to run .450-.500lifts on high duration cams.
 
Thank you so much for the detailed response! I've looked at some dsm forums in the past and most of the engine mods they listed went way over my head. Yours made a lot more sense. Seems like the 4g63 can make 400 whp relatively easy and with the light weight of the gta, it should be very quick.
 
I've been watching the progress on the 818 as well (out of curiosity more than anything). I like the idea of the project, but I think FFR is taking the easy way out. "Not that there's anything wrong with that...". I seriously think the biggest problem with that car is the people on the forum. It's just a mess!!!

Getting back to the GT Apex, it's going to be a magnificent car. Whether you use an intended 4G63 engine or choose to put something else in there, it's a car that can be built to oem standards that is going to be absolutely awesome to drive (on the street or the track).

This is going to get very exciting in the upcoming months!!!
 
Fran mentioned on FB that the target weight is 2300 lbs.

That's much heavier than I expected. My awd gsx was around 2700 with full interior. This car will be far better off in all categories but I figured the weight would come in around 2k or less. I like the idea of being able to call an Elise a "pig".
 
Christopher...great input for guys that may not realise the potential of the Mitsu engine packages.

The weight of the car is determined by the fact that it is aimed at being a potential daily driver with electric equipment...mirrors, windows etc..plus a full plush interior....not a stripped out racer...although I have a feeling there may be a few of those being built too.....

This car is also larger than the Eclipse...103 wheelbase vs 98...its lower and wider than the Eclipse too.

Much larger brakes, wheel/tyre package also.....the actual weight may well be less but we dont want to blow smoke and miss the mark...
 
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Like I said I have been watching the 818 unfold since the beginning as I want a blank canvas that was designed from the start to be a performer. I wasn't planning on running a subaru flat four in that car as I don't feel they are very good engines and may have some oiling issues in a higher lateral G car. The 4g63 oddly enough is almost the same weight but a far better platform.

Anyone with 4g63 questions I would be willing to answer as I watch this car develop. I worked with these engines since almost the beginning and know the ins and outs of the setups like the back of my hand as well as most venders by a first name basis. Fran you need to speak with Tom and Dave from DSMLink as I can assure you they would be thrilled to partner with you to offer an ECU package for your customers. The bug has already been put in their ear, and Tom was willing to sponsor me if I ran their setup on the 818. They love seeing their product in cars like this and are great guys who help the community out a ton.
 
Justin, I completely agree about the people on the 818 forum. I have been watching that car from the beginning and there are some very odd personalities on there. One guy just can't help but critiquing and then "photoshopping" every proposed design and his photoshops are absolutely laughable. Yet people seem to take him seriously there, like he is some design authority, when he puts out the WORST looking designs of anyone.

They just seem to have a very odd design philosophy over there.

Now the GTA? Looks great, and I can't wait to see more. I'm glad to see that RCR is designing an actual cool looking car.
 
Just a thought for the extremist (none on these forums amIright?) Advan sells carbon fiber doors for the 1995-1999 Talon/Eclipse

(hopefully the link is alowd, not trying to advertise for anyone.)

Advan Carbon - The leading retailer of quality carbon fiber body kits, car body kits, rear spoilers.

Had an Advan cf hood on my evo, weight was so-so (compared to he original aluminum hood was about the same if not slightly more) looks was excellent, the UV protector coating what ever didnt really work, a year in he sun and i had to buff out the white stuff every couple months, recomend painting any cf.
 
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The aftermarket parts people would like to see would be the interior parts....any links to those would be great too

We use the complete factory door...including exterior sheetmetal.....keeping the door intact maintains the integrity of the cabin and side impact but also maintains the factory weathertight approach......
 
I've been interested in some interior options but all I can find at 'ricer-tastic' images, though I have seen some tasteful ones.

I saw the Advan CF doors, I wonder how much weight they actually save though, a lot of people immediately that just because it's CF that it MUST be lighter.
 
CF doors are pretty dangerous for any street car. Fran, are you planning on running a stock 2g interior? The plastics are pretty darn flimsy and squeeky. They aren't exactly the best materials IMO compared to many modern interiors, plus they are getting older so lots of them are fading and cracking.

The only real aftermarket interior components that I know of are CF replacements, which don't save any weight at all. I had an S2000 gauge cluster but that was a custom one-off.
 
I need to start researching these cars. So, is the 6 bolts main the engine we want over the 7? How do we know the exact car/engine we want? 95-99, but what else do I need to know?

Also, Fran, any new tidbits? Sorry to hound you, but this car has me so excited. This may be everything I have been looking for.

Any chance of having a release party at the new facility?

Mr. Wolfe
 
I believe the 6-bolts were from 89-92. After that they were 7-bolts. The engines I would worry the most about are the 7-bolts from 95-99. I have heard on more than one occasion of crank-walk. (This is from memory, you probably want to look it up)
 
I believe the 6-bolts were from 89-92. After that they were 7-bolts. The engines I would worry the most about are the 7-bolts from 95-99. I have heard on more than one occasion of crank-walk. (This is from memory, you probably want to look it up)

So we need the body of the 95-99 and the engine from an 89-92?

Mr. Wolfe
 
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