Superlite GTA

[Tom]

At one point in late 2012, I was pretty hot and heavy that this was going to be my next car. I'm in my early 40's, and have always been a car guy, but never able to justify something that performed. Practical and useful always ruled.

This sounded ideal - build myself (sounds enjoyable), fairly inexpensive (drop $25-30K initially, with final costs up to about $40K), factory interior so it can be a daily driver (requirement for me), and performance to equal something running twice as much or more (WOW!).

For me, increasing the price to add some of the great stuff the SLC has would've been a deal breaker. I needed the fun, inexpensive, daily driver.

Note that I say needed - past tense. Since the Apex was delayed, and I decided it probably wasn't realistic to expect to have the time to build it, I went a different direction.

I got a Scion FR-S. $26K, handles better than anything I've had, gets 31mpg, light and nimble, fun. So far I'm loving it.

It seems like the Apex could fill a niche similar to the FR-S/BRZ. Less $ than others with similar performance, but still fun enough to be worthwhile.

Perhaps a few years down the road, I will be back looking at building something again - be it Apex, SLC, or ????? I still check in here fairly often, it's still exciting to see all the cool builds going on.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Thanks Tom....
thats the kind of info I am looking for....and as you are the demographic I aimed the Apex at its good to hear your opinion...

 

[Roger]

Firstly my original intention was to make an entry level car at an entry level price...
It seems that the potential customer base for the Apex would like to have multiple drivetrain options along with lots of wow factor and higher end fixings and furnishings...potential supplied by Superlitecars......this defeats the purpose of the project really.

Personally, I don't think that a 4 cylinder car can be anything other than entry-level. I'm not really in the target market for the Apex, but I would have considered one if it were cheap (relative to the SLC) and could be built with no second-hand parts - the centre section being reused killed it for me. Allowing the use of secondhand parts, with quality ones available if and when, could reduce the upfront cost though.

Supporting only one drivetrain option is fine for an entry-level car IMO. Keep it simple.

From my understanding of the target market, being able to buy in stages could allow a higher overall price. Something like a cost-reduced (if possible) SLR with a full-body add-on might work. I don't know your cost model though.

1,Forget the low entry level price and develop the car into a full blown higher
end package and actually make it a comparable product to my other offerings.

If you want an enclosed cockpit, it's the SLC. Nothing prevents a secondhand, and cheap, drivetrain option, e.g. Subaru. I don't see the Apex, with a structural donor required, being an alternative, although it would be more practical. I'd like to see an SLC with a shorter front overhang - that'd be better than a similarly priced Apex IMO.

If you want a cheaper 4 cylinder, it was the SLR. I don't know how well that sold, but IMO it was an excellent, quality entry-level car.

Part of the problem is certainly my engineering and manufacturing approach and not wanting to compromise on quality and that costs money ...which bumps the retail cost

That is what you're known for, so the requirement to use secondhand, structural parts in the Apex always surprised me. I understand wanting a production car interior, but I'd get a production car if that's what I wanted. IMO, the upper-end of your 4 cylinder, mid-engined, competition is a secondhand Elise, which forces the $20-25k price-point with secondhand parts.

California is different though. A "specially-constructed" car allows for a smog exemption, allowing you to have some fun with the engine. A production car (post '76) makes it either impossible or, with CARB approved modifications, very expensive.

 

[doug blowers]

OK guys ...

There are a few things going on with the Apex programme...

Firstly my original intention was to make an entry level car at an entry level price...
It seems that the potential customer base for the Apex would like to have multiple drivetrain options along with lots of wow factor and higher end fixings and furnishings...potential supplied by Superlitecars......this defeats the purpose of the project really.

There are multiple schools of thought currently floating around the thinktank at the shop....

1,Forget the low entry level price and develop the car into a full blown higher
end package and actually make it a comparable product to my other offerings.

2,Only offer the kit already attached to a donor chassis and as a roller, again at a
higher price point

3,Halt development and not spend any more money or time on the project as it will
take many hundreds of units sold at the 20k package price to even break even on
the cost to bring it to market...

Part of the problem is certainly my engineering and manufacturing approach and not wanting to compromise on quality and that costs money ...which bumps the retail cost ...I already have a large pile of money and time invested in the Apex but sometimes cutting ones losses early is better than prolonging the pain and suffering....

If the Apex is to be compared to a Q1 Rossion and be better why should it be sold at $20k...especially if the quality and content that seems to be on peoples wish list is to be considered

Let me have some input from real potential customers with an intelligent perspective...the door is not yet closed ...

I look forward to reading your input..

Fran,
FYI, I was at the FFR open house to see the 818 even thou I am disappointed in it looks. I talked to a few people that are following the Apex because like me they lost interest in the 818. I think there is a good market for a lower level kit car that can be used as a daily driver. I think you will be surprised.

 

[Jack]

IMO, stick with the original plan if possible. Should development costs become too high so that your ROI can not be recouped with 15-20 sales, drop it like a hot potato! (IMO, sorry guy's)..
I personally would like to see an entry level, reasonably priced daily driver like the Apex for the "Younger" crowd. Should be viable if the numbers will work. Enhancements should be up to the builder.

 

[Ryan Fritts]

I too was interested in the 818 until I saw the frame and then the final design of the body. Would love an SLC but could not pony up that much cash. Now the GTA could be possible at its price point. I guess my suggestions would be to keep the price point or even lower it by using components (arms, brakes, rack, spindles, wheels) from a solstice, miata or similar. Maybe just provide the fiberglass body and subframes to keep price in check and allow builders to make it their own.

 

[MikeN]

Please do not scrape the idea, I believe there is a market for an entry level kit car, especially one that is more of a modern design, not another cobra replica. I do agree the idea of keeping it simple and just use 4G63 as originally planned. There will be always someone somewhere hating the 4 banger idea, well then this is not your car, simple as that, go buy something else. Just like someone else mentioned, here in CA, we can't really mod anything other then a "self build" car, so this is a really good idea for someone to start small and learn along the way. If you want to build a V6, V8 or up, go find something else, or if you are skillful enough, you can always fit a V6 in yourself, but as a economic standpoint, a standard kit will/should fit a 4g63 perfectly.

At the same time, the quality and build shouldn't be compromised also, I am pretty sure people will understand and appreciate the quality work and quality parts, even if that means a bit more startup cost. At the same time, I don't think it should be overly designed because someone *might* cramp a V12 in there just in case. Market the car as a 4 banger and keep it as is; if you want a 2000HP dragster, look elsewhere; if you want to put a 6 rotary in, look elsewhere, or basically you are doing it at your own risk.

Sorry I feel like I am babbling because I am really bummed to read that this might get scraped. I may not be able to purchased one right away if it comes out, since I just purchased a new car not long ago, but I will definitely build one down the road for sure. Same as any car enthusiast, my ultimate goal(bucket list) is to build a car from scratch, but at the same time, I don't want to pay $100k+ cash to build a SLC without any experience, and above all, I don't want to build a cobra kit car that everybody and their mama has. Please reconsider.

 

[Justin Hutson]

I think you should just bump the price up a little bit instead of sacrificing quality. My only complaint on the car is that you used an eclipse/talon shell. I think using the 3000gt/stealth shell would have made for a better car for the apex. The interior on them are alot better looking and nicer than the eclipse. Also I think you could just do two engine mount locations. One being the 4g63 with trans and then also do the 3000gt/stealth engine/trans. Like I said awhile back in this thread, you can use the 3000gt engine/trans, the engine in them is the 6g72 3L forged internals. By using the 6g74 3.5L shortblock from the mitsubishi montero or the mitsubishi cars over seas. The heads from the 6g72 block fits on the 6g74 block so you can use stage 3 heads(272 or 280 cams, and either +1 or +2 valve sizes). A shop in new york builds 6g72 and 6g74 strokers for 8500, the 6g74 block and be bored and stroked to 4.2L. The owner of this shop has a 3.5L stroker and it makes over 1000awhp and he drives it like he stole it. Being it would be rwd in the apex all you would need to make the trans bulletproof is a billet aluminum ring welded in the bellhousing to strengthen the housing, then billet shift forks, and maybe a billet end case on it. The 6 speeds tend to block the end case to pieces on hard launches at the track. Being not awd in the apex though I think you wouldnt need the billet end case. The strokers they build use all billet internals so it would be really stout and make A LOT of power but also make that power low in the rpm range because of the displacement. Also theres another shop that built custom bolt on turbos, with these turbos and about 4k in supporting mods his stealth makes 612awhp and 640awtq for comparison he also has a heads/cam/intake/exhaust/nitrous and tune that makes 608rwhp. His 3L v6 with bolt on turbos sees peak hp about 1500 rpms sooner than the 8L viper.

So to me I think you should continue the project and just charge more for the kit, to help you out you could offer to have shells shipped to you then cut the car up and install the subframes and body to send back to the owner as a complete rolling chassis ready to be finished, but also you could just send out all the parts for the car and have the owner built the roller themselves. I wouldnt suggest doing used parts for suspension parts and stuff because you guys are known for your billet knuckles and kickass big brakes. You could also sell the big brake kits and wheels as an add on to help offset costs if the owner doesnt want/need the brakes and wheels.

 

[Greg Wolfe]

Hi Fran,

As you know, I am a big fan of this concept as are many others I have talked with. I think this covers a niche market that no one has claimed. We need a quality car that can be built for $40k.

I feel my opinion is warranted being that I plan on building this car. For what it's worth, and without knowing all of the details, I would be willing to pay $25k for the kit. In my opinion, a base of $30k will eliminate a decent percentage of potential buyers.

I hope you guys come up with a solution as I would HATE to see this scrapped. There are many people banking on RCR building this kit.

Mr. Wolfe

 

[Evan]

Would it be possible to offer as a basic kit using as many donor parts as possible while also offering various levels of prep/assembly for those looking to less of their own work? Fancy upgrades could be engineered to substitute for factory components for those that want/need it.

You listed 2 options that result in a higher price along with the option of scrapping the whole thing. Does that mean that mean that your original plan of a $20k price already off the table?

As others have mentioned, everyone will throw out random desires, often without regard to the cost or compromises that it would require. It's not hard for those with big budgets to go all out on an inexpensive car, but there's no way for those on a tight budget to build a kit that starts out expensive from the get go.

 

[Leon R]

As others have mentioned, everyone will throw out random desires, often without regard to the cost or compromises that it would require. It's not hard for those with big budgets to go all out on an inexpensive car, but there's no way for those on a tight budget to build a kit that starts out expensive from the get go.

Some of those desires could be very logical and not random, at all. But… that doesn’t mean that they have to be entertained! I would just pick the cheapest/most common and reliable 4G63 engine/transmission combination and go with it. Some people will not be happy no matter what you do. It is not worth scrapping the project over the small percentage of potential customers, even if they are remain vocal.

I have no doubt there is a place for this kit, the tricky part is the execution. How to keep "just the right" number of fancy features, while keeping the cost reasonable…

 

[Tom]

One other thing I should've added - the look of the Apex. I really liked the way it was coming out. Not the same as much else out there, maybe hints of things here and there. Sporty, aggressive, different enough to get noticed but not such that you couldn't go to the gas station and back without 2 dozen people around (I've read those SLC stories!).

With the FR-S at about the same weight as the Apex target and 200hp, I hear people complain about it being underpowered and wonder "for what?". I can break the speed limit like just about any other car out there. I could get in over my head in lots of different situations. The fun of the car is in being able to take it to its limits without being extremely dangerous or illegal. Turning off traction control and getting the rear a bit loose. Taking highway clover leafs at speeds almost nobody else can touch. It has put the fun into my commute and weekend cruises like nothing I've experienced before. 31mpg is pretty nice too! I think 2-300 in the Apex would be a lot of fun.

 

[J. Porter]

Fran, I'm in the demographic., Also have been really excited about the Apex since hearing about it. I understand you guys are really busy with other projects but the timeline since announcing it was too long, and I got a used 911 about a month ago. I'd hate for you to scrap the project, as it is very unique and I would love to see where you take it. My opinion is put the work into it so that you are personally satisfied to call it a superlite, price it accordingly, and then the fans will come. I feel like I just joined a cult with the 911, a car guys passion for a great car that does things right the first time isn't about the price. So increase as you feel needed, I know that I'd rather you did, than myself with less than half-reputable internet advice on how to improve something that could have been done right in the first place with a little more money at the factory. Good luck!

 

[Kasey]

Well, I guess the GTA is not comparable to a Rossin Q1 .. I'am just in love with the idea of an affordable entry level Superlite car utilizing a 4g63.
I figured that the 4g63 has been built to handle 700+ hp (my target) reasonably and coupled with a proper suspension from RCR would make it an awesome car on and off the track.
I would gladly accept a gta kit and add the engine and drive train at the initial discussed price but if it's raised to 30k+ then that may make it out of reach.
Also Iam in my early 30's and own lancer evolution ix 400+hp, and 7generation awd Galant.

 

[Merim]

My take on this is if he does anything resembling doing more work to the chassis and assembly, the 20k is long gone out the window. It has to cost more.

For Fran, to sell a car as a roller, you'll be spending a lot of time chasing down donors, people will be asking how many miles, etc. Lots and lots of work to find a clean donor car or have the customer send it to you, but labor cost to prep the chassis front and back is not 2 hours I would imagine. Maybe 40-80 hours of labor (guess) just work?

Then, since you are building the roller, you have to do all the work to mount the body, bond the roof I imagine, etc, make sure it's square, gaps are good, etc. That's also extra cost that wasn't figured in the 20k initial thoughts I would imagine.

So all that said and done, you're easily at 27-30k I'd bet.

I could see why you wouldn't want this to go out in kit form:
1) people will not get the body attached correctly to the shell
2) even if you give them perfect bolt holes for front/back frames, someone will screw it up and all of a sudden the product is no good...

The only way to do all that work and keep it at 20k is to take stuff out that's part of the standard package. I would recommend sell it as a bare bones roller with body and chassis mounted correctly. Don't throw in anything else, if any of these were in anyway...(take out the shocks/springs, brakes, hubs, axles, radiators, etc.) basically give the people a chance to buy a bare bones roller that has the quality you care about in the right places where it makes a difference, but freedom for people to customize.

It's entry level after all, so you don't need to be as thorough as you are with the SL-C.

my .02

 

[Jason Lewey]

Speaking strictly from the 2G Eclipse body perspective, there is no difference between FWD and AWD (beyond some driveshaft mounting bosses/studs). Engine harness will be radically different on non-turbos (since they use ChryCo engine), so expect to source it elsewhere (typical cost for used engine harness is around $100).

I hear some comments about picking such an old car, well, there is advantage to it! I do not know how much people are aware of this, but OBD2 emission inspections started flagging non-native and/or modified ECUs, it is becoming a serious problem for newer cars! One of the advantages of using 2G Eclipse is that 95 model year has an excellent OBD2 ECU, but it is pre-1996, so it is exempt from OBD2 testing! That should make annual inspections much easier in many states!

As for people who just can’t stand a 4 banger and “must have a V8”, some will never change their mind, but some will become 4G63 converts once they see what this tiny engine is capable of!

Price wise, it will not compete with the $10k 818 (natural comparison) and once you are at $20k, going to $30k is not huge leap, especially if you justify it with increased quality.

Leon,

You've made some great points there about the OBDII and emissions testing. I've been in this DSM game for 13 years now and understand all of the little differences with the motors and transmissions My questions was more targeted towards the differences flywheel and transmission options. Especially considering those that want a 6-bolt swap may be required to use the 2g trans if the kit is designed around those transmissions that have different mounts on them than their 1g counterparts.

I would also like to know if it's sold as a kit and not a roller, how much factory wiring is reused? Since the N/A Chrysler engines used in the RS/GS trims will have a completely different harness and ECU than their turbo 4g63 GST/GSX brothers. I don't mind doing a complete frame up restoration and replacing everything with new parts, as this is what I was hoping the GTA would be in the first place. Rear engine, balanced super car based on a platform I'm already familiar with. I would love to see some custom suspension options up front to go along with whatever is being fabricated in the back to mount the engine.

I believe I fit into the demographic that's willing to spend 35-40k for a complete car, with options going past that for anything we want to customize obviously. Hell, I've dumped over 30 grand into a 93 1g DSM over the years...and that will not turn a single head like this GTA will.

 

[Evan]

Some of those desires could be very logical and not random, at all. But… that doesn’t mean that they have to be entertained! I would just pick the cheapest/most common and reliable 4G63 engine/transmission combination and go with it. Some people will not be happy no matter what you do. It is not worth scrapping the project over the small percentage of potential customers, even if they are remain vocal.

I have no doubt there is a place for this kit, the tricky part is the execution. How to keep "just the right" number of fancy features, while keeping the cost reasonable…

You're right, random isn't the right word. Everyone has different desires and priorities. Some will say they don't care about the appearance while others look at that first and everything else is a distant second. Same for everything else, interior, cost, etc, etc. The challenge is to find the combination that satisfies a lot of people instead of trying to please everyone to the point that you've designed a $200 swiss army knife that few will actually purchase.

 

[Greg]

I believe I fall into your target demographic. I finally picked up a 2004 Honda S2000 with hardtop for $17500 a month ago after wanting one for 7-8 years.

If the Apex is to be compared to a Q1 Rossion and be better why should it be sold at $20k...especially if the quality and content that seems to be on peoples wish list is to be considered

When I compared the GTA to the Rossion a while ago, I was only thinking in terms of design and performance since the GTA was rumored to have the option of using either a 4 or 6 cylinder drivetrain. I think a kit car that competes well against a Lotus or the Q1 in terms of performance is a good thing, as once again, giving the buyer the ability to save money by avoiding the labor costs is a good selling point.

It seems that the potential customer base for the Apex would like to have multiple drivetrain options along with lots of wow factor and higher end fixings and furnishings...

Personally, I think having the option of picking your FWD drivetrain of choice is a big make or break point for this car. I don't particularly care about the wow factor and high end fixings as I don't believe that's what this car is about. However, I think that like the SLC, the ability for different car guys to chose the drivetrain they are most comfortable working with is important. The 4G63 is a good option for DSM guys or those that want to go for the single donor route. I personally would rather go with something like a Honda 4-cylinder setup or a Nissan V6 setup.

I think that for the car to be worthwhile, having the options to chose another drivetrain and order the car as a roller (both at an additional cost of course) are probably necessary as not everyone is going to want to go the DSM route or hunt for a donor car.

P.S. I'm pretty sure Fran is already willing to work with people on installing other drivetrains but I think it should be emphasized more.

 

[Greg Wolfe]

In my opinion, all deviation from the original plan should be on each individual customer. If you want a different engine, figure it out yourself.

Fran's original plan was my favorite. If need be, add cost to the kit or remove a few items like wheels, etc. to get the price where you want it.

You can't make everyone happy so do what is right for RCR. I think keeping it simple will be the most profitable with the least headache potential.

Mr. Wolfe

 

[doug blowers]

In my opinion, all deviation from the original plan should be on each individual customer. If you want a different engine, figure it out yourself.

Fran's original plan was my favorite. If need be, add cost to the kit or remove a few items like wheels, etc. to get the price where you want it.

You can't make everyone happy so do what is right for RCR. I think keeping it simple will be the most profitable with the least headache potential.

Mr. Wolfe

Mr. Wolfe,
I agree with you 100%. I would not mind if he removed the rims from the package to help his margin. I thought this project was a great idea and I am disappointed that a few people could distract Fran from finishing his original goal for this car.
If you want a different motor. Figure it out. If you want to do something different, fabricate it yourself. If you want a unicorn and don't plan to ever buy this kit. Go post it on Facebook\twitter\instagram.