Transaxles???
- Thread starter MachOne
- Start date
Greg
This is a good question. There are darn few
replica GT40s in the US running that much HP. There seem to be more in the UK at
elevated power levels, and from what I can tell, most use highly modified Renault or
ZF transaxles.
The consensus is that if treated with care
(no abuse), the Audi 016 will live with 500 HP. But for those that want to abuse (race)
their cars hard, a Porsche G50 is
probably the most economical choice.
If money is no object, a Quaife (UK) or
RBT (USA) custom built transaxle will handle
big HP numbers...along with an equally big
pricetag! Unfortunately there is nothing
in between the G50 and hi-dollar units
that I am aware of. Maybe someone else knows.
MikeDD
This is a good question. There are darn few
replica GT40s in the US running that much HP. There seem to be more in the UK at
elevated power levels, and from what I can tell, most use highly modified Renault or
ZF transaxles.
The consensus is that if treated with care
(no abuse), the Audi 016 will live with 500 HP. But for those that want to abuse (race)
their cars hard, a Porsche G50 is
probably the most economical choice.
If money is no object, a Quaife (UK) or
RBT (USA) custom built transaxle will handle
big HP numbers...along with an equally big
pricetag! Unfortunately there is nothing
in between the G50 and hi-dollar units
that I am aware of. Maybe someone else knows.
MikeDD
G
Guest
Guest
Mike you pretty much nailed it down. There is the Porsche G50-50(52) from the turbo 911. There are also firms, like Powerhaus II, who will modify/strengthen the Porshce transaxles. They do a lot of work with Ultima cars. The problem is what transaxle does the kit support or how adept are you at modifying the frame/chassis to accept another tranny. The only kit I know that will offer a choice - audi, porsche, rbt/zf, quaife (I think)- will be John Hester's GT Supercars spaceframe and monocoque chassis.
[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Lynn Larsen ]
[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Lynn Larsen ]
I had a G50/52 transaxle built by Powerhaus II for an Ultima. I had to cancel the project due to problems importing the kit into Canada. The box was built to handle 575hp and 550 ft/lbs of torque and included
Custom ratios
Billet shift forks
Billet side covers
Motorsport synchros
Custom oiling with external oil pump and cooler.
LSD
I am looking to sell it if anyone is interested.
Custom ratios
Billet shift forks
Billet side covers
Motorsport synchros
Custom oiling with external oil pump and cooler.
LSD
I am looking to sell it if anyone is interested.
Paul,
How much $$$ are you asking for your gearbox?
Bill
How much $$$ are you asking for your gearbox?
Bill
G
Guest
Guest
Back to this old chestnut I see! Lets hope Audi v Renault is as much fun as Chevy v Ford! There are definately two schools of thought on gearboxes and before we start I am in the Renault camp cos it is what I use with success!
I paid £300 for a second hand box (although low mileage) and abuse it regularly without issue. I do not have the quaife upgrades in this box and no LSD. 350 bhp (310 dyno'ed at wheels) and it is ok. I have shagged the third gear synchro once and when I had the adapter plate misaligned I stripped the input shaft spline, but other than that it has been problem free. The AP racing clutches suffer more than the box does. 24000 miles in the bag now and I am not known for being light footed. Also snapped a Jack Knight racing drive shaft once without harming the box.
If you go over 400 bhp then you are moving into more risky territory. The french supercar Venturi use the renault box as standard with its 400 bhp engine. Lotus use this same Renault box in their Esprit V8 though I think that has less BHP (300?).
Now the Quaife upgrades come in two forms. One is the 1st 2nd gear ratio and strenght upgrade. This may not be that readily available now as only so many kits were made. I don't know the current situation.
The Quaife LSD is meant to be the mutts nuts and is available in the UK at £650 plus taxes. It is a straight forward change over without any mods needed. The latest batch has the speedo drive taken care of now too so I am told. Those that have it (make me jealous) say the difference is amazing. Launch times are dropping and controllability on track is up too. These guys love it.
Now the rumour I have heard is that Kevin Jones of GTO Engineering (near Reading, UK) is developing in conjunction with a Williams F1 engineer, a full 6 speed Quaife (not sequential) set of gears to replace the renualt internals lock stock and barrel. Shake your renault case empty of one set of bits, fill it with new stuff, redesign your gear gate for 6 speeds plus reverse and away you go. This developement should be ready for next year and cost somewhere around £3500 plus taxes. I suspect you will need the LSD as a separate item so say between £4000 to £4500 plus taxes all in.
The arguement about the Renault casing being crap is just that, crap. With the high horsepower outputs of some people (excess of 550 bhp) with both chevy and ford engines using renault boxes, none have reported problems of the casing causing grief in any shape or form. The internals don't like this high horsepower (hence quaife upgrades going on) but the casing is doing just fine.
Availability is a bummer I understand in the US and possibly Aus too. Hence looking at and using other boxes. I can't comment on other boxes as I don't have any experience of them. I just look at the big manufacturers useage of other boxes and see what happens there. To me this means the Porsche has to be a serious contender for use as the 911 can be made very powerful. From my Ultima owning friends it does sound though it is at a price.
In previous comments on this forum, the Audi box fans seem to like being able to go to scrap yards and getting a box for peanuts. Our cars cost a bomb most of the time so saving money has to be a good thing. My concern on the Audi box is that I know not of any application of car it is used in that has the kind of horsepower that GT40 builders want ie 400 bhp upwards. Robert Logan in Aus talked of high horsepower with them but also talked about the boxes being upgraded to cope. Fine. But that is not a $75 cheapie from the scrap yard. I await to be corrected!
Therefore my conclusion (biased as it is)if you have the budget to go mental on the engine expect to have to do the same on your gearbox as otherwise you shall be off the road with repairs every time you floor the throttle. By this I mean 400 BHP upwards. If you are a road driver only then a standard Renault box will work, it is proven by users in the UK over the last 10 plus years, is not too dear as second hand ones start at about £200, and there are adapter plates out there to ford, chevy and rover V8 engines. In fact did not Neil Foreman who makes the P4 replica mate a Ferrari V12 from a 400i to a Renault?
Of course if you want authenticity as per the argument put forward in the chevy v ford debate (battle?) then there needs to be a rush on getting ZF transaxles.
What we need is some non Renault cars in the GTD club competition stuff to prove that other boxes are up to the test. Renault passes so can they?
Malcolm
I paid £300 for a second hand box (although low mileage) and abuse it regularly without issue. I do not have the quaife upgrades in this box and no LSD. 350 bhp (310 dyno'ed at wheels) and it is ok. I have shagged the third gear synchro once and when I had the adapter plate misaligned I stripped the input shaft spline, but other than that it has been problem free. The AP racing clutches suffer more than the box does. 24000 miles in the bag now and I am not known for being light footed. Also snapped a Jack Knight racing drive shaft once without harming the box.
If you go over 400 bhp then you are moving into more risky territory. The french supercar Venturi use the renault box as standard with its 400 bhp engine. Lotus use this same Renault box in their Esprit V8 though I think that has less BHP (300?).
Now the Quaife upgrades come in two forms. One is the 1st 2nd gear ratio and strenght upgrade. This may not be that readily available now as only so many kits were made. I don't know the current situation.
The Quaife LSD is meant to be the mutts nuts and is available in the UK at £650 plus taxes. It is a straight forward change over without any mods needed. The latest batch has the speedo drive taken care of now too so I am told. Those that have it (make me jealous) say the difference is amazing. Launch times are dropping and controllability on track is up too. These guys love it.
Now the rumour I have heard is that Kevin Jones of GTO Engineering (near Reading, UK) is developing in conjunction with a Williams F1 engineer, a full 6 speed Quaife (not sequential) set of gears to replace the renualt internals lock stock and barrel. Shake your renault case empty of one set of bits, fill it with new stuff, redesign your gear gate for 6 speeds plus reverse and away you go. This developement should be ready for next year and cost somewhere around £3500 plus taxes. I suspect you will need the LSD as a separate item so say between £4000 to £4500 plus taxes all in.
The arguement about the Renault casing being crap is just that, crap. With the high horsepower outputs of some people (excess of 550 bhp) with both chevy and ford engines using renault boxes, none have reported problems of the casing causing grief in any shape or form. The internals don't like this high horsepower (hence quaife upgrades going on) but the casing is doing just fine.
Availability is a bummer I understand in the US and possibly Aus too. Hence looking at and using other boxes. I can't comment on other boxes as I don't have any experience of them. I just look at the big manufacturers useage of other boxes and see what happens there. To me this means the Porsche has to be a serious contender for use as the 911 can be made very powerful. From my Ultima owning friends it does sound though it is at a price.
In previous comments on this forum, the Audi box fans seem to like being able to go to scrap yards and getting a box for peanuts. Our cars cost a bomb most of the time so saving money has to be a good thing. My concern on the Audi box is that I know not of any application of car it is used in that has the kind of horsepower that GT40 builders want ie 400 bhp upwards. Robert Logan in Aus talked of high horsepower with them but also talked about the boxes being upgraded to cope. Fine. But that is not a $75 cheapie from the scrap yard. I await to be corrected!
Therefore my conclusion (biased as it is)if you have the budget to go mental on the engine expect to have to do the same on your gearbox as otherwise you shall be off the road with repairs every time you floor the throttle. By this I mean 400 BHP upwards. If you are a road driver only then a standard Renault box will work, it is proven by users in the UK over the last 10 plus years, is not too dear as second hand ones start at about £200, and there are adapter plates out there to ford, chevy and rover V8 engines. In fact did not Neil Foreman who makes the P4 replica mate a Ferrari V12 from a 400i to a Renault?
Of course if you want authenticity as per the argument put forward in the chevy v ford debate (battle?) then there needs to be a rush on getting ZF transaxles.
What we need is some non Renault cars in the GTD club competition stuff to prove that other boxes are up to the test. Renault passes so can they?
Malcolm
Malcolm
Believe you covered it.
Main issues are availabilty and cost.
There will soon be several GT40's in the US
running the Audi box, so we'll see first hand
how much abuse a $ 300 US box can take!
Unfortunately we don't have the many opportunities to race together over here like you do. Makes us all jealous!
MikeDD
Believe you covered it.
Main issues are availabilty and cost.
There will soon be several GT40's in the US
running the Audi box, so we'll see first hand
how much abuse a $ 300 US box can take!
Unfortunately we don't have the many opportunities to race together over here like you do. Makes us all jealous!
MikeDD
Some more details of the G50/52
Powerhaus II rebuilt G50/52
gearbox, never used
Powerhaus 80/80 LSD
Steel synchros
Billet side cover
Billet shift forks
New 14:34 Custom first gear
New 21:28 3rd gear
New 25:26 4th gear
New 28:24 5th gear
Custom oiling with spraybar
Tilton transmission oil pump
This cost $9875 and I would accept offers around $9000 + shipping. I have taken a bit of a beating on this Ultima fiasco so don't expect any give aways.
I also have the clutch slave cylinder and high torque geared starter.
If interested I can send you a picture of the box.
Powerhaus II rebuilt G50/52
gearbox, never used
Powerhaus 80/80 LSD
Steel synchros
Billet side cover
Billet shift forks
New 14:34 Custom first gear
New 21:28 3rd gear
New 25:26 4th gear
New 28:24 5th gear
Custom oiling with spraybar
Tilton transmission oil pump
This cost $9875 and I would accept offers around $9000 + shipping. I have taken a bit of a beating on this Ultima fiasco so don't expect any give aways.
I also have the clutch slave cylinder and high torque geared starter.
If interested I can send you a picture of the box.
G
Guest
Guest
Paul, I think I saw the specs on this on the Powerhaus II website. I would very much like to git a copy of the pictures. If you'd like, I'll post them here. Guys this is a sweet box!!!!
Oh...Cheryl..come here sweetie, we need to talk!!!!
[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Lynn Larsen ]
Oh...Cheryl..come here sweetie, we need to talk!!!!
[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Lynn Larsen ]
How about this this "coulda, shoulda, woulda"-when Ford discontinued supplying parts for the Pantera (circa 1982) the remaining ZF gearboxes in service parts inventory were sold off. I sold several via my Ford dealership at the time.....$750.00 in the crate!
One guy bought two from me and still has them.....and no, he won't sell them. he has a fabulous collection of FoMoCo hi-po parts that he will not part with.
Rick
One guy bought two from me and still has them.....and no, he won't sell them. he has a fabulous collection of FoMoCo hi-po parts that he will not part with.
Rick
I recentley got a catalog from Tornado & they show a Ford/Renault bellhousing. Am I right in thinking this does away with the iron adaptor plate as used on my GTD?
The adaptor plate must weigh a ton! Does anyone know of any other ways mating the 'box to the block?
Has anyone here used one of the Tornado bellhousings?
The adaptor plate must weigh a ton! Does anyone know of any other ways mating the 'box to the block?
Has anyone here used one of the Tornado bellhousings?
G
Guest
Guest
Julian
the aim of teh Tornado bell housing is to do away with the steel adapter plate. people are using them but none I know of to give you an opinion.
This bell housing will allow a staandard ford clutch and starter motor (I think) but not having seen one I don't know quality or weight. You really want to compare the combined weight of a renault bell plus adapter to the tornado bell housing. If you do post the results.
Malcolm
PS Julian, you are an anti-weight freak!
the aim of teh Tornado bell housing is to do away with the steel adapter plate. people are using them but none I know of to give you an opinion.
This bell housing will allow a staandard ford clutch and starter motor (I think) but not having seen one I don't know quality or weight. You really want to compare the combined weight of a renault bell plus adapter to the tornado bell housing. If you do post the results.
Malcolm
PS Julian, you are an anti-weight freak!
G
Guest
Guest
Here is the picture of Paul's G50/52. I have a feeling that this is going to be too long to fit in a GT40. Paul, can you give us the overall length and/or length from axle flange centers to rear?
G
Guest
Guest
Hey what a great looking box. Even uses braided pipes on part of it but why spoil it with using some copper pipes to the box oil cooler????
Malcolm
Malcolm
Chris, what is that? How much? Looks like it will need a custome bellhousing to mate up to a small block Ford.
FWIW, I plan to closely monitor Ford's price on the RBT 6-speed when the new GT40 is introduced next year. Ford has been know to underprice performance goodies shortly after new production models are introduced.
FWIW, I plan to closely monitor Ford's price on the RBT 6-speed when the new GT40 is introduced next year. Ford has been know to underprice performance goodies shortly after new production models are introduced.
