Tyres traction to weight

Hi guys, i'm finding it hard to locate an artical on the net that explains a tyres traction in comparison to the weight applied. Basically in general a tyres behaviour under different situations, maybe with some figures. Also is it possible to get numbers and figures on characteristics of a manufacturers tyre?
I'm kind of new to this area, but would like to learn as much as i can!

Cheers!
 
I'd recommend books over the net any day.
"How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn, and "Tune to Win" and "Engineer to Win" by Carrol Smith might be of some help.

Tim.
 
Hi guys, i'm finding it hard to locate an artical on the net that explains a tyres traction in comparison to the weight applied. Basically in general a tyres behaviour under different situations, maybe with some figures. Also is it possible to get numbers and figures on characteristics of a manufacturers tyre?
I'm kind of new to this area, but would like to learn as much as i can!

Cheers!

It sounds like your looking for some pretty hard-core data. When i was on my universities formula SAE team, we were a part of the 'tire consortium' which has the data your looking for, though, only in popular formula SAE sizes. I don't know if you will be able to get that data without being associated with a university, or you may; it probably just costs more.

take a look at this:
http://www.millikenresearch.com/TTC_SAE_paper.pdf
this just might be what your looking for.

Our suspensions were designed around this information.
 
Hey guys, thanks for the posts. I've read a few books but they never really went into that much detail with figures etc. I'll have a look for those books and that artical looks quite interesting.

Thanks!
 
There are some SAE books available, although I don't know if it is to the public, as I was offered them when I graduated as a ME. They were extremely expensive. Like $400 a book. I think it was a four or five book set. They supposedly went into all kinds of detail about vehicle design characteristics. IME I have a tough time justifying even looking at designing tires. They are what they are. Pretty much durommeter reading and contact patch are the determining factors. If you want to get into tire spring rates and flexure, it could be useful in diagnosing handling issues, but, for the most part, they are what they are from the manufacturers. In practical applications, you simply work around them based on tire wear and temps.
 
I would like to find a graph that shows tyre grip on one axis and tyre loading/weight on the other. From here you could work out how much weight transfer left to right and front to back you need to attain maximum levels of grip out of whatever tyres the graphs are for.

To help me understand suspension systems i am mathematically designing my own car.
I know what needs to go where as ive created working suspension systems before based on experience but i want to be able to get a system as close as possible before it would hyperthetically get made.

I'm not going to go in depth on those other points you suggested as like you said the main factors are contact patch area etc.
 
If you're just kinda playing around, I know Mitchell has some interesting dynamic computer programs where you can design a suspension in 3D and then run the hypo car around a hypo track. It includes many parameters such as coefficient of drag, banking of turns, etc. Not sure it's exactly what you are looking for and I haven't played with them in years, but I recall they were relatively cheap. Like under $300.I also recall changing tire compounds and after a point, the car started slowing down due to rolling resistance of the tires. We found this to be correct in real life circumstances as well, so it did seam like it was designed along the right lines. It even got so detailed as to let you change the engine cam and see the effects.
 
Jimbean Jimmy,

The kind of data you are looking for is closely guarded by the tyre Co's so you are highly unlikely (in my experience) to have much luck getting this sort of information.
 
Mark Donahue came up with the traction circle. It's in his book The Unfair Advantage. That's how he explained trail braking. There was one fact proved wrong though. Mark said that a tire could never generate more corning force than the down force being applied. That one was blown away bt tire technology.
Chris
GT Reproductions: The Thrill is Real!
 
all tires have decreasing marginal grip as load increases. Does the tire info have 3 dimension data that includes grip vs. camber vs. load? That seems like it would be helpful in setting a suspension camber curve.
 
all tires have decreasing marginal grip as load increases. Does the tire info have 3 dimension data that includes grip vs. camber vs. load? That seems like it would be helpful in setting a suspension camber curve.

If you are asking about the program I mentioned, yes to some extent. Camber, castor, toe, vehicle weight.....all that can be inputed and the computed effects shown. Now what the math is behind the graphics? I don't know. I believe I got the software from a company called Performance Trends. Don't know if they still exist as this was many years ago.
 

Mike Pass

Supporter
I suspect that the graph you are after may not give you what you want because a car when moving is a dynamic situation. The load on the tyre, the friction coefficient of the road, the slip angle of the tyre, the castor and camber, the angle of roll of the car, the camber of the road, the forces applied to the wheel by the springs and damper are changing constantly. This why a car which is set up for a smooth track is hopeless when used on a bumpy one. For us mere mortals we usually spend a long time getting a good setup by trial and error. For top race teams they have complex chassis dynamics tables to jiggle them around or very very complex computer simulations. The best you can usually do is to reduce unsprung weight, buy the stickiest tyres, buy top quality springs and adjustable dampers, check out the camber and castor changes in the suspension and the movement of the roll centres with suspension movement. Make sure the anti roll bars are friction free, adjustable and effective. Then do lots of tests of cornering g and tyre temp across the tread to maximise everything. We had a spaceframe sprint car which was OK but when we spent a couple of days on setup of ride height, corner weights, castor, camber etc. etc. went from a 39sec run time to 36sec with same bars springs etc. We also found with a very light car on slicks that running with tyres flat to the track was no good as the rubber did not get hot enough to generate grip. By running with "excess" camber with the tyre and only using a portion of the available width the contact patch got hot enough to work and the car was much quicker - weird. This will not really apply to road tyres which are based on mechanical grip rather than chemical grip.
However you could always follow Colin Chapmans adage - if you want to go quicker add lightness.
Cheers
Mike
 
I think that the actual real data that you need is held only by the tire manufacturers and they wont pass it around, there are also too many road surface varialbes that need to be accommodated + temperature = weather conditions
Take a look at Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken, it gives more information regarding tires and traction than you can imagine, highly recommended for any gear head ISBN 1-56091 526-9
Covers all suspension types and variations, good aero dynamics, and all geared toward race car dynamics, an SAE bbok
At least take a look at it, then you'll buy it
Dennis
I think that it was about US$100
 
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