Un1 synchro improvements? For high rpm gear changes.

As per my other thread I have now found out that the un1 gearbox can't shift at high rpms(over 6500)does any1 know what can be done to improve it?
I have heard of 2 things that can be done.
They are,
polishing of the synchro setup
removing every other tooth on the synchros and polishing.
Is this something any1 has done or had done?
does any1 know of any alternatives?
Or any reasons why not to do the above?

I really need to solve this.
And before I get told to ring chris cole or Gto, I have and Gto said it's a slow changing box due to the wide ratios, and you have to live with it or upgrade to quaiffe,
chris cole has offered to do some improvements but will do it as part of a rebuild that's costly and wouldn't tell me what gets done.
I'm happy to rebuild it myself and can get the work done locally for less.

If I can find out what to do?

Thanks
 
I'm also keen to know what these mods are. Sounds to me that they don't do that much for the hyped up mods and charge heaps. If there are major modifications and changes, why hide them? There are major hardware changes for strength issues.
 
that looks ideal, but not exactly local being the other side of the world lol
if i can find somewhere in the uk that did this that would be great.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
"Shift at 6500RPMs" I sorry but I don't know what you mean by that. You can't possibly mean that you intend to change from 2nd to 3rd with your foot flat on the floor and the engine turning at 6500 rpms? Never gonna happen with a Renault. Ever! At least not twice. It will break for sure.

Especially if you have a motor that is tuned to the point that you are running it up to 6500 because that is the top of the power curve. A 302 making max power at 6500 would surely be north of 400HP. If you think you can bang shift a Renault, or just about any of the gearboxes being used in these cars like that, and have them last very long then I think you should talk to some professional gearbox rebuilders or racing gearbox suppliers before you go any further.

If you mean something else please be specific.

By the way I have a Chris Cole R21 with all the good parts in it. I am very happy with the ratios, it shifts pretty good, and I think the Quaife TBD is just magic and my motor makes 300hp at the wheels, but I would NEVER shift it like that. Not even if I was stone drunk.
 
I have the box on the back of a 400bhp cosworth engine,
what I mean is rev all gears to 7k, limits 7200, off the throttle, clutch then change gear. Not flat shifting.

I'm findin out more now and might have found some1 that can do the same as above and convert syncros to dog rings.
Or the poor mans dog rings(machined syncros)

I just want to b able to change quickly.
 
ive done a bit of searching and come up with this

all stolen from other forums...



I will attempt to explain although you may need to have the hub, slider, gear, synchro assembly in hand to fully understand.

The springs in the hub push the keys outward against the slider. The keys rest on the slider and move with the slider as you shift gears. When you shift gears the keys mate with the synchro ring and push the synchro ring onto the cone of the gear as you shift toward that gear, this is what matches the gear speed to the slider speed and prevents that gear grinding noise you may hwear with worn synchros. The keys are free to move up and down on the slider but the pressure exerted by the springs keeps the key movement some what in line with the slider movement. The stronger the force exerted on the keys outward toward the slider the more the keys will move with the slider and press against the synchro which mates with the cone on the gear.


also very interesting

If you run two springs on each side of the hub instead of one it can help high RPM shifting, the only downside is that shifting 1 and 2 may be a bit more notchy, but not much at all, it was hardly an issue for me.

I discovered this when a trans came to me with this mod already. I have run it on my car with the double synchro 2nd gear but i dont think it is really all that necessary with the double synchro 2nd gear.




I used to drag race a 4 speed Monte Carlo with a built 355 years ago. All of the transmissions I built for that car, I took off every other tooth on the synchro. It absolutely made the transmission shift better at high rpm especially under a full power shift. However, I would NEVER do this to a street car transmission as it will cause accelerated wear under part throttle shifts as well as making it harder to shift under part throttle. This should be considered a strip only mod, where the transmission will be torn down on a regular basis.



grinding synchro teeth.
Has anybody ever heard of doing this? my dad has been building transmissions for over 20 years he says he used to do that on his old cars. He said he didnt know how it would work on. his words exactly "its either gonna shift like the dickens or grind like a mother ####er"
so after contimplating wether i should risk it or not i decided heh, why the hell not if it doesnt work then i can change it out i have plenty here, so i went ahead and did it but instead of every other tooth he took off 2 teeth left 3 took of 2 then left 3 all the way around, now i was really starting to worry lol.so we put it in and it accually shifts fine, it shifts really good ecspecially at high rpms like 8200 it went in fine no grinding. so i dont know if anybody has ever heard/tried this before but it works great for me.
thumbsup.gif


Robert Bowen discussed this practice briefly on page 163 in his book "How To Rebuild and Modify Your Manual Transmission" . It's a "low-budget way to get synchronizer-free shifting." According to Bowen, Chrysler used this practice in 60's in their drag racing cars due to rules prohibiting aftermarket parts at the time. He says that, to paraphrase, it's a poor man's dog box conversion, although not as sturdy as the real thing, but the gears can be shifted without having to wait for synchros to do their magic.

they are taken off the engagement dog, not the gears
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Stu

Perhaps look at a gearbox from a Mazda Rotary as they spin even faster
Surely the syncro mechanisms on something like that could be copied to the UN1

IAn
 
Hello,

Quick shifting with the UN1...

You have simple options and more complex ones :

Talking about 3,4 and 5 in the UN1. A thoroughly polishing of the conics give good results with a blue printing of the rings on them and obviously new rings. Basically using the same polishing paste that you use for valves sitting (I don't know the word in english..sorry losing my english these last times as I don't have much occasions to speak or write..)

Also you can use a thinner oil but the thinner the oil the less protection on teeth, so be cautious.

The sharper the dog teeth, the better obviously too.

Link rails have to be polished too and clearance between the gear finger and the grrove in the link rails reduced by the most.

But most of the benefits come from the synchro ring in itself that can be changed or modified.

Next time I have to produce a batch of synchro rings modified, I will PM you.

Cheers

Stephane
 
thanks for the reply, your english is very good.

the polishing paste is grinding paste.

i am going to get the teeth sharpened, polished, remove every other 1 and i am going to add an extra symchro spring to each 1.
how do you mean blue printing them?

what else can be done to the synchro rings to modify/improve/replace them?
i would be very interested in a modified ring, do you have any details/pics?


im using redline lightweight shockproof oil, i think i will change to the superlightweight, its a bit thinner.
 
If the syncro's are in good condition it would be more likely that poor syncro engagement is a symptom not the coarse of the problem.
The syncro has to match the speed difference between gears in a up or down shift by increasing or decreasing the speed of the rotating mass. The rotating mass of the gear sets and input shaft is low compared to the clutch plate due to is large diameter and therefore high level of kinetic energy at high RPM's.
A lighter plate or better still a smaller diameter twin plate will make a big difference.
Good luck.
Steven
 
We have no problems shifting a similar UN5 @ 10krpm on the back of a rotary engine - are you using a decent oil? We're running a 75w-90 fully synth from silkolene
 
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