Where is the Factory Five of GT40s?

[Mike Dozier]

Meat

This time we're in complete agreement!
There are a lot of us that think FFR
missed a big opportunity with their
mid-engine kit. It's OK looking...
but no more.

They should have targeted another classic.
If they absolutely couldn't do the GT40,
they should have looked at doing a T-70
or Chaparral or 917 or something Ferrari-ish
(like the Foreman P4) or Can-Am cars.

MikeD

 

Hey,

I COMPLETELY agree with Mike D and Meat. Some one can and should make an American GT40 in the price range of Tornado or NZ. If an enterprising American did it would be a a huge seller.

I know I'd buy one.

Doug

 

[40 Bud]

I think all of the people who think it is easy to make a good, inexpensive, high performance automobile that they would be willing to take on the track at 100 to 150 mph and still pass muster with the state regulations etc., should put their money were there mouth is and start producing something. I think everyone would love to find a nice inexpensive exotic to play with. Unfortunately it ain't going to happen!

 

I don't see how Tornado could be profitable offering a frame, body and suspension for $6700 and remain in business. (Iguess they're not anymore?). I am in agreement with 40bud - let me see a business plan where you can be profitable at a 'low' cost and then perhaps, but not before. As someone in sales, I live by the belief that you get what you pay for.

 

You go Meat.

Doug

 

Hi all, When I finished the tooling for the FFR Daytona Coupe, One of the owners set me right to work on the Daytona Coupe Convertibil....( I know... please don't ask ) but convertible it was going to be. At the same time we talked about a mid engine kit. I suggeated that a mid engine platform is what I have wanted to do sine 1965, namely a GT40. I thought a mid engine chassis made to accomdate bodies of the GT40, Lola T70 Coupe & spider, 917 would be nice. I was willing to sculpture out all these bodies for them. I guess they found a shop to do it cheaper & faster. That's all that they are concernd with; having it done at the lowest price. I think FFR could do a great job of producing a mid engine car, but it would have to be steel. They are really set up for steel fabrication in a fast & eficeint manor. They have two smart engineers that could design it, I just wish they would go out to a few vintage car races to learn & see how race car costruction has evolved over the years.
About their roadster fram; I think its dangerous. Thoses two main 4" frame tubes running down the length of the car are the problem. There is no deformation built into them. They should check out what NASCAR requires for chassis design. They made some changes in their frame design ruls to require the frames to deform in the front. Too many drivers were getting killed hitting the wall at less than head-on. re; law suit with FFR. I think it was a request from Ford about not making a replica of the GT40. It was a combinded Shelby & Ford law suit as I understand it.
I would love to see an entry level GT40 kit done right. It's been on my mind since 1965. I never had the cash to do it right. Like I said, until now the transaxle & windshield have been the problem. Being a fiberglass guy..... I want to build a composite chassis.... what do all you guys think????

 

I hope you do it Bill. The more the merrier.

Doug

 

[40 Bud]

I do wish all who undertake building a cheapy well. I will be interesred in seeing them. As far as the N>Z cars and Toronados pricing is concrened they are certainly inexpensive when compared to ERA. However,as I remember, when Toronados were selling via a distributor on the east coast they were about $ 37,000 on up for a complete kit - no engine and no upgrades. The N.Z car (which I consider an excellent value) were going for about $ 30,000 delivered to the west coast. You had to supply a few odds and ends but they were fairly complete packages. Throw in a good engine, a good paint job and know upgrades - well you give it a price. I guess my question is what is considered a low cost completed GT40?

 

Both of those cars have an increase in price here in the US for similar reasons. NZ's car will cost you $3-5 K to have it shipped here. The Tornado has the same problem also when the US distributor was around they had to mark it up to make money for themselves.

American manufactures cars cost so much is because of several reasons, but chief among them is that they CAN charge that much. They know the manufacturers overseas charge an arm and a leg for shipping so they have no real incentive to lower their price. As, more American companies make this car we will see the prices come down.

Didn't mean to rant. This is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Doug

 

[Ron Earp]

As far as I can tell, the NZ car is it for the "Factory Five" of GT40s, although I don't mean "Factory Five" in a negative light as I know some folks with Cobra knowledge might take it.

That car is $44,800 complete less engine - painted and all. Add $3k for shipping and you're in and running for not too much. I don't know the details of all of the car, but it has had favorable reviews. And, if it is missing some tiny details these can be fixed for a reasonable amount of cash I am sure.

For $29,996 GT40 NZ will supply a complete kit with everything they make and it looks fairly complete.

But, either way I don't think you'll complete these cars for under $50,000 for the complete one, and not under $38,000 for the complete kit. GT40s ain't cheap.

Maybe a company will do it for less, but it doesn't seem realistic to expect a $16,000 kit - just supply engine, transmission, paint and sweat. As pointed out the molds are more complex, the chassis is more complex, and a good deal of thought has to be put into the suspension - you just can't take off the shelf pieces, although some have used Corvette suspensions with good results.

Ron

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Ron Earp ]

 

Something else that should be mentioned is the entire concept of value. Value is not only measured by what someone is willing to pay, but also what someone is willing to charge. For instance, if you charge $15 for something, that is what it is worth. If you charge $30 for that same thing, it is now worth double the amount. If I am building a GT40, I'd be all about selling VALUE as opposed to selling PRICE.

If you look across the board at virtually anything for sale, most people buy the mid-level value item. They feel that the cheapest is just that, the cheapest. The most expensive probably has something they don't really need, or something they can convince themselves they don't need. (As a manufacturer, you want to convince them they need these things.)

Now, put yourself in a GT40 manufacturer's shoes. First, they're probably doing it because they love the car. But secondly, they're probably in this nitch market because they like to sell fewer vehicles, higher quality at a fair profit.

If you consider selling a lot of cars at a low margin versus fewer at higher quality and higher margins, I'll take the second any day of the week. Your overhead may be the same (though doubtful), but your fixed costs will be higher selling more units, and your liability and support staff will most defintely be higher.

Anyway, that's my two cents. In my opinion, GT40's are boutique sales, and should remain so.

Pat Barry


p.s. you too have a nice last name Doug

 

[Mike Dozier]

Ron

I suggest $ 25k is attainable for a complete
kit less eng/trans/tires/sweat/paint.
Of course it wouldn't have the content
level as a higher spec car in terms
of killer brakes, leather interior, genuine
gauges and switches, etc. But it would still
be a highly respectable replica, one that
could be finished for $ 35k total for a basic 5.0 and Getrag.

I believe it can be done, and I think
it would sell very, very well provided
the quality and service were there.
Think about it. How many new GT40 replicas
do you think are bought in the US per year?
I think that number could easily double or
triple given the right price/product.

MikeD

 

[Jim Glickenhaus]

IMHO the time, work, and love you put into your car is what gives it their real value.
Don't waste the above. The enjoyment you get is the only thing that matters...

 

When I worked at a bike shop we sold several manufacturers of bikes. We had top line bikes like Eddie Merckx and Cinelli that started at $2K with components like Campagnolo and Dura Ace. (Trust me these are the best components.)These were the ERAs of the bike world.

We had Schwinns that had low end $150 bikes all the way to $1,500. The low end bike had nothing in common with the high end bikes except they had two wheels, a place to sit, and were powered by a human being.

We also had Trek that started at about $300 and also topped out at about $1,500. They were very nice bikes but again the lower end bikes and the high end bikes were quite different.

My personal favorite was the Cannondale. They started at $400 and went all the way to $2k. The $400 bike had OK components but nothing to write home about. The top of the line had the Dura-Ace components and was ready for you to take to a race track and get going. They only thing to stop you was your ability. What made the Cannondale so unique was that it didn't matter if you bought the "low" end bike or the top of the line the all had the same frame. The difference came from the quality of the components.

Alot of people, including myself, bought the low end bike and when money allowed upgraded to the better components. The only thing my bike has now that it started out with is maybe the seat post.

I know this was a long post but I believe that the FFR of the GT40 world is the same as the Cannondale of the bike world. We have several manufacturers across the ocean who are our Cannondales. It just kills to have them sent here. I don't blame them they just have a long way to send their cars. We need a domestic manufacturer that can do the same thing without the high shipping costs.

I agree with Meat. I think it can be done.

I hope this made sense,

Doug

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Doug Barry ]

 

[Mike Dozier]

Value is a highly emotional and personal
subject.

My wife's value of a GT40 is NOWHERE near
the value I place on one. Does that make
one right and one wrong? I don't think so. It's just different for each individual.

The value I am trying to ascertain is the
MARKET value in the US that
(given clever applications of
business formula) might appear in
the forseeable future in the form of
a lower cost, but fully capable GT40 replica. And who is going to do it?

I thought FFR was going to be the company
that did it. I guess that won't happen.
So will it be an existing manufacturer?
Or will it be a new player that opens the
door for the hundreds (not thousands)
that might buy if the price was lower?

MikeD

 

Ha, ha.

Sounds like your wife and mine are related.

Doug

 

Watch Iowa for GT Legends

Tornado is alive and well. Mine should be finished soon and there is another Toranado being built north of Atlanta. cb

 

Tornado is, as far as I know, doing just fine. They have proven it can be done. It's amazing that a bunch of Americans can't do what socialist's (please, no offense to our friends across the sea-but I'm trying to make a point here

) have been doing for years. Maybe you're right. Maybe, they're just more efficient. Maybe, they don't need to pay as much for labor and insurance. Don't know.

I still believe in America and Americans.

What do I know?

Doug

p.s. Pat great last name.

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Doug Barry ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 40bud:
I think all of the people who think it is easy to make a good, inexpensive, high performance automobile that they would be willing to take on the track at 100 to 150 mph and still pass muster with the state regulations etc., should put their money were there mouth is and start producing something. I think everyone would love to find a nice inexpensive exotic to play with. Unfortunately it ain't going to happen!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine. I'll talk to a chassis engineer on monday. I've already located an excellent candidate for a donor vehicle (drove it to work this morning!).

Bodywise...well...I'll have to make a few calls.

Your pal,
Meat.

 

Oh, and it'll have to meet the Meat definition of 'replica.'

Your pal,
Meat.