I never cease to be amazed!

[Pat Buckley]

I said it was an extreme - to make the point. Thanks for taking the opportunity to deride the example.

You use the terms "impossible" and "never" pretty loosely.

You are wrong.

When the penalties for hiring illegals are high enough, people will stop doing it.

We have to stop it.

 

[Jeff Young]

Like when we had prohibition? Or our anti-drug that are never broken?

Or wait, I have it! We have made STEALING illegal. So no one does it.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Like when we had prohibition? Or our anti-drug that are never broken?

Or wait, I have it! We have made STEALING illegal. So no one does it.

I guess we should just fire the cops and wipe all the laws off the books. Great idea Jeff! We'll save tons of money!

 

[Doug S.]

Typical liberal.

You are assuming that we are incapable of reaching a decision without your help? Who are you? Arrogant comes to mind.

Pat...Pat....Pat....now, play nicely :stunned: .

You say "Typical liberal." with the same sneer in your voice that I use when I say "Typical radical conservative".....I'd say my political leanings are much more in line with Jeff than with yours, but I'll not insult you for having your views. Insults are not persuasive, rational discourse can be.....

However, your point regarding the Chinese may be spot-on....I would suspect we might have a million Mexican illegal immigrants in our country at the present...and yes, I'm feeling over-run!

 

[Jeff Young]

WHOOOSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

That was the point flying past your head Al.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

WHOOOSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

That was the point flying past your head Al.

I'll stick with the laws, at least until you change them.

 

[Howard Jones]

Hey Jeff 2 + 2 = 4. You disagree with that............too. After all that would mean that someone besides you might know something.

 

[Jeff Young]

The point was that you can make all the laws you want, but until you understand why people obey or don't, you'll never be able to effectively enforce them.

Here, you have a MARKET driven phenomenon. Too many paying jobs in the US, too few in Mexico.

Laws won't stop people from coming to the US to work. So why not change the law to benefit everyone?

1. Let the illegals in LEGALLY.
2. Let them work LEGALLY.
3. Tax them and their employers LEGALLY.

This ain't rocket science, and the alternative is walls, and guns, and jeeps and helicopters that won't ever solve the problem you perceive.

 

[Pat Buckley]

YerDugliness

LOL - I realize that everyone thnks that they are moderates, but I really am! Really!

Actually there wasn't a hint of a sneer in my voice when I posted (how could your hear me?) but more of resigned dismissal.......

Here is something we have all seen before - IMO it sums it up pretty succinctly (to this moderate!)




Difference Between Liberals and Conservatives

If a Conservative doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one. If a Liberal doesn't like guns, they believe no one should have one.

If a Conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn't eat meat. If a Liberal is, they want to ban all meat products for everyone.

If a Conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat his enemy. A Liberal wonders how to surrender gracefully and still look good.

If a Conservative is homosexual, he quietly enjoys life. If a Liberal is homosexual, they loudly demand legislated respect.

If a Conservative is a minority , he sees himself as independently successful. Their Liberal counterparts see themselves as victims in need of government protection.

If a Conservative is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation. A Liberal wonders who is going to take care of him.

If a Conservative doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels. Liberals demand that those they don’t like be shut down.

If a Conservative is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church. A Liberal wants all churches to be silenced.

If a Conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it. A Liberal demands that his neighbors pay for his.

If a Conservative disagrees with a Liberal president, he is called a racist. When a Liberal disagrees with a Conservative president, it's patriotic dissent.

If a Conservative expresses his political view, he is called an idiot. A Liberal expressing his political views is expressing his right to Freedom of Speech.

“I never use the words Democrats and Republicans. It’s Liberals and Americans.
- James Watt, Ronald Reagan’s Interior Secretary

 

[Garry]

Pat,
You are so right on much of the list. That was good reading. Let's not forget that there really are many stripes of Liberals. The ones in your examples would be the Radical Left and your examples were dead on.

On another note, I get Jeffs argument that a free-market solution beats the guns and borders solution. We need to get a better grip on the hiring of Illegal Aliens in America by American businessmen. By fining and if nessecary, shutting down businesses that violate the laws, we could put a dent in the problem. All that has to be created is a form of identity and a verification system that is essentially fullproof and we could enforce the laws. Unfortunately, congress has not made a real effort to address this issue. Hell, we are fighting in Texas on the need to provide an identity card to vote; to prove citizenship to vote! The Democratic party does not want this because they will loose voters, some of which were illegal voters in the last round of elections.
I just read an article in Forbes about the illegal Immigration problem and the hiring of these individuals. It seems that there is a mass of businesses that feel that without the illegal workforce, they cannot run their businesses. I am sure that they hire lobbyists to promote that way of thinking. So these business owners (meat packers, agriculture, etc.) don't feel that they should be subject to paying a legally required wage or be subject to the same health and safety requirements that an American would demand. I am of the opinion that if the price of beef or chicken has to rise by another 30 cents a pound so that these workers could be paid properly, then so be it. Let's not forget that companies like Wal-Mart, Target, Kroger, etc., should do the responsible act of verifying that their suppliers are operating legally and that they hire only legal workers.
Jeff, this works for me, but we will never get to full US employment without a strict quota on immigration and these work visas. I for one do not think that we need to support Mexico or any other country's citizens more than we should look after our own legal residents. I am not convinced that Americans will not do the dirty work of meat packing, agriculture, road work, or whatever. They just won't do it for $7 an hour with no breaks. If businessmen can't run a company with legal and just wages for their employees, then the executives need to take a paycut and the investors need to move on to other investments. Free market ideas are great as long as the playing field for all participants is equal.
garry

 

[Pat Buckley]

I agree with you -

Further to your point, why should agricultural employers get away with hiring illegals when auto manufacturers are stuck with high dollar union workers?

It is bad enough that the USA is being reduced to buying everything from other countries - our tax base and manufacturing capabilities are declining as a result - but now United Statesians (lol) are not even going to be competitive in the service industry jobs that illegals are going to be taking!

What is left? A great military?

In my opinion, a combination of stricter law enforcement combined with fairly draconian penalties for those who hire illegals would do most of what is needed to eliminate the problem. I do not feel that we should throw our collective hands in the air and declare the problem unsolveable -

Coincidentally, yesterday at 10AM I presented myself to the Immigration and Naturalization Service in Sacramento for my final interview and testing in order to become a United States citizen. I was approved and the ceremony should take place on July 14. A United States citizen by choice.

I moved the the USA when I was 14 with my family - I remember all the work that my dad went through in order to get here legally. To see masses of people being granted immunity rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

The problem in Az is that we have people encouraging illegal immigration. The Pima County Board of Supervisors for the past 9 years have spent $22,500.00 a year for water stations for illegal immigration. I watched Napolatono last night saying that the border was effective now. (When she was governor, she wanted 3000 troops on the border, somehow in her present job, everything is OK) After she spoke , a AZ Sherriff Captain that works the border came on and said the problem was worse than ever. It seems that drug cartel members are now shooting at enforcement officers. He went on to say that in CA and Yuma there are double fences that work very well, but BO stopped the funding to build them in other trouble spots in AZ.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I agree with you -

Further to your point, why should agricultural employers get away with hiring illegals when auto manufacturers are stuck with high dollar union workers?

It is bad enough that the USA is being reduced to buying everything from other countries - our tax base and manufacturing capabilities are declining as a result - but now United Statesians (lol) are not even going to be competitive in the service industry jobs that illegals are going to be taking!

What is left? A great military?

In my opinion, a combination of stricter law enforcement combined with fairly draconian penalties for those who hire illegals would do most of what is needed to eliminate the problem. I do not feel that we should throw our collective hands in the air and declare the problem unsolveable -

Coincidentally, yesterday at 10AM I presented myself to the Immigration and Naturalization Service in Sacramento for my final interview and testing in order to become a United States citizen. I was approved and the ceremony should take place on July 14. A United States citizen by choice.

I moved the the USA when I was 14 with my family - I remember all the work that my dad went through in order to get here legally. To see masses of people being granted immunity rubs me the wrong way.

Congratulations Pat!

 

[Chris P.]

If a Conservative is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church. A Liberal wants all churches to be silenced.

Bullshit. That's the way you want it be but reality is much different. In actuality, it's reversed: If a Liberal wants to be governed by a government of the people and for the people, a Conservative wants the government to base its laws on religious doctrine.

If a Conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it. A Liberal demands that his neighbors pay for his.

Bullshit again. Employer paying / neighbor paying. Either way someone else is paying for your healthcare.

Your list is biased - it's a list comparing moderate conservatives to radical liberals. Anyone can make the same list from the other side between moderate liberals and radical conservatives. Either way is useless. It's just another typical useless list of information that does nothing to help the problem.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

The point was that you can make all the laws you want, but until you understand why people obey or don't, you'll never be able to effectively enforce them.

Here, you have a MARKET driven phenomenon. Too many paying jobs in the US, too few in Mexico.

Laws won't stop people from coming to the US to work. So why not change the law to benefit everyone?

1. Let the illegals in LEGALLY.
2. Let them work LEGALLY.
3. Tax them and their employers LEGALLY.

This ain't rocket science, and the alternative is walls, and guns, and jeeps and helicopters that won't ever solve the problem you perceive.

We want to let them in legally, there is a process in place to accomplish this. You want it to happen immediately. Ask Pat how long it took to become a citizen. Why do you think that BO and former presidents and politicians have been wishy-washy about stopping illegal immigration. It's not because they can't do it or the cost to do it (it cost us far more each year to have illegals here, prisons, health, welfare, etc). The VOTE is the reason. Why do you think BO is dragging his feet and starting a lawsuit against an AZ bill that mirrors the Federal bill but has provisions not to profile and to protect human rights? The federal bill is and has been there all along. Why isn't he enforcing the Federal bill? What does he have to gain? We could enforce the law, other countries do. What do politicians have to gain? Job security! We are incurring a $500 billion a year debt because of illegal immigration for political job security!
Oh, and when you get a chance, look up the CA immigration law, it's a lot harsher than the AZ law.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

If a Conservative is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church. A Liberal wants all churches to be silenced.

Bullshit. That's the way you want it be but reality is much different. In actuality, it's reversed: If a Liberal wants to be governed by a government of the people and for the people, a Conservative wants the government to base its laws on religious doctrine.

If a Conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it. A Liberal demands that his neighbors pay for his.

Bullshit again. Employer paying / neighbor paying. Either way someone else is paying for your healthcare.

Your list is biased - it's a list comparing moderate conservatives to radical liberals. Anyone can make the same list from the other side between moderate liberals and radical conservatives. Either way is useless. It's just another typical useless list of information that does nothing to help the problem.

I think that liberals would like the government to do most everthing for them, while conservatives would like to be self reliant with minimal government control.
Maybe that is over simplifying it, but closer than you think.

 

[Jeff Young]

That's over stupefying it actually.

Your $500 billion number is bunk. Support?

Take a look at how Hispanics voted in 00 and 04 and tell me again that this is some grand plan to garner votes? Hispanics are NOT block voters.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

That's over stupefying it actually.

Your $500 billion number is bunk. Support?

Take a look at how Hispanics voted in 00 and 04 and tell me again that this is some grand plan to garner votes? Hispanics are NOT block voters.

$14 billion to $22 billion dollars are spent each year on welfare to illegal aliens.
The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR): Immigration and Welfare

$2.2 billion dollars are spent each year on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. -
Center for Immigration Studies

$7.5 billion dollars are spent each year on Medicaid for illegal aliens. Center for Immigration Studies
> >>>
$12 billion dollars are spent each year on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they still cannot speak a word of English! CNN.com - Transcripts ;
$27 billion dollars are spent each year for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. -http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

$3 Million Dollars 'PER DAY' is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. That's $1.2 Billion a year. CNN.com - Transcripts

28% percent of all federal prison inmates are illegal aliens.
CNN.com - Transcripts

$190 billion dollars are spent each year on illegal aliens for welfare & social services by the American taxpayers. -http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

$200 billion dollars per year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
CNN.com - Transcripts

That's $441.9 billion, sorry.

 

[Jeff Young]

Whew. Where do we start.

Any FAIR numbers are suspect, and as Garry noted its pretty hard to track them anyway.

But let's hit the easy marks first.

The Lou Dobbs stuff has been ripped apart before. The $1.2 billion a day is based on his wildly wrong estimates of the numbers of illegals in prison.

Like it or not, the $27 billion for anchor babies is paid because..our Constitution says they are citizens.

The $190 you cite at the end is duplicative of other numbers above. Which is it?

The $200 billion in "suppressed wages" is just as easy to blame on employers as illegals.

So we now have you down to what, under $25 billion?

And you completely ignore the dollars they add to the economy.....you obviously didn't read what I posted above.

 

[Chris P.]

Why do you think that BO and former presidents and politicians have been wishy-washy about stopping illegal immigration. It's not because they can't do it or the cost to do it (it cost us far more each year to have illegals here, prisons, health, welfare, etc). The VOTE is the reason.

Bullshit. For starters, both repubs and demos will be on that list of former presidents. Also - it's not for the vote - big business loves illegals. And big business loves republicans. Some of us see a different connection than you.

Also, a lot of the numbers being thrown around are extremely suspect since some illegals do actually pay taxes. Embracing Illegals