What is natural?

[Roark_John]

Ok guys, here is a thread bound to create some controversy!

What is natural?

Can the way we live even be considered arbitrarily natural, or is it something other?

For example...is it natural to be so far removed from your foodsources, the very basis of your nutrition? Is buying hormone and antibiotic-laced meat on styrofoam trays, wrapped in plastic, natural? Is buying GMO vegetables, picked immature, shipped half-way around the world for your shopping pleasure?

Is farming and ranching even natural?

How about hunting and gardening/gathering? Is this now declase and primitive because we are a technologically advanced race?

I would love to hear from EVERYBODY on this topic, because it does affect us all...from healthcare in the form of diabetes and heart disease to E. Coli and cancer, to economics because of labor exploitation and cost increases, to social because of concerns about Climate Change and resource usage to community planning and population.

I would like to hear from any and all who are involved in the permaculture movement, the homesteading movement, the organic movement, the convenience movement, the prepping movement, the stewardship movement, hell even bowel movements!

 

[Jack]

Good topic John. I grow my own veggies, purchase farm raised meat and poultry.

 

[Mike]

I grew up on a cattle ranch. Calfing operation. Free range. Nothing but "natural" food went into them.

That was decades ago. I now live closer to the city, but my family still has a nice vegtable garden that we harvest every year.

You're right though, no one seems to be able to get away from a "process" of some sort these days, somewhere along the chain.

 

[Roark_John]

This is exactly what I'm talking about guys, keep it up! :thumbsup:

When on deployment, we're forced to eat ALL processed foods, there really is no choice except for an occasional supplement of fresh fruit or veggies if you're at the right base to receive them. FOB's rarely if ever get these delights.

Before my latest deployment I had been experimenting with a paleo-diet and the results impressed me. I dropped alot of body-fat while increasing muscle-mass, simply by maintaining the same exercise habits I've had since a teenager (wrestling, martial arts, running and assorted outdoor chores).

To compliment this, I have recently discovered something called CrossFit...if you enjoy short, intense workouts with incredible gains in energy, cardio fitness, toning and muscle-mass, this is something you should seriously consider for yourself. I was introduced to it by a 57 year old gentleman...what's truly amazing about this is that except for salt & pepper hair, you would never think he was much past his early 40s!

Furthering this mindset, I have been reading and digesting the permaculture movement, which is really a very old idea in modern packaging. Permaculture began being advanced back in the 50s, around the beginning of the modern suburban culture, well before the hippy back-to-the-land movement.

Basically the gist of my discoveries is that "old-school" ways have the most bang for the buck...and when I say "old-school", I literally mean the original school!

 

[Jack]

The current MRE's are tastier than the old "C's". Loaded with preservatives too!
My diet is much like the Paleo-Diet, modified a little. More veggies (naturally grown).
I begin my day with carrot juice mixed with whatever leftover veggies from day before. I do enjoy baking my own bread though! I can't see how anyone at an FOB could effectively suppliment or eliminate the MRE's. Just have to make do with what you can get. Somewhere between 3500 and 5000 calories per day are needed for a single person to maintain in a combat enviroment.

 

[Mike]

The current MRE's are tastier than the old "C's". Loaded with preservatives too!
My diet is much like the Paleo-Diet, modified a little. More veggies (naturally grown).
I begin my day with carrot juice mixed with whatever leftover veggies from day before. I do enjoy baking my own bread though! I can't see how anyone at an FOB could effectively suppliment or eliminate the MRE's. Just have to make do with what you can get. Somewhere between 3500 and 5000 calories per day are needed for a single person to maintain in a combat enviroment.

That's kinda funny, cause when I really get going on a build, I only sleep two 3-4 hour shifts, eat 4-5 meals a day, and intake roughly 4500 calories!

Guess it could be looked at as I am "doing battle" to get these things done!

 

[David Morton]

On some of my trips to the U.S.A., I used to frequent the farmers market in Santa Monica and I have to say the Stawberries , peaches , necatrines, and oranges looked absolutely superb. However, my daughters (then children 10 years and below) turned their noses up at what I brought them from Santa Monica. And they were right to as well. They were totally tasteless and a waste of money and effort. Instead of bringing what I thought were nice things, I quickly learned to spend my allowances on the old golden Jose Cuervo and sit in the Huntley Hotel watching the sun go down on the Pacific and getting totally pissed.

 

[Graham]

On some of my trips to the U.S.A., I used to frequent the farmers market in Santa Monica and I have to say the Stawberries , peaches , necatrines, and oranges looked absolutely superb. However, my daughters (then children 10 years and below) turned their noses up at what I brought them from Santa Monica. And they were right to as well. They were totally tasteless and a waste of money and effort. Instead of bringing what I thought were nice things, I quickly learned to spend my allowances on the old golden Jose Cuervo and sit in the Huntley Hotel watching the sun go down on the Pacific and getting totally pissed.

David,

Couldn't agree more.

My chice of vegetables is strict. Hops, Barley, grapes and the odd grain ALWAYS make it into my diet. It seems to bring some sunshine into life (until the next morning)

Cheers!

Graham.
P.S. When in california I always take the time to improve my diet (just north of San Francisco that is)...some luvverly wines!

 

[Doc Kaler]

Graham,

Don't forget the all-natural Blue Agave.....

I raise native Bison (buffalo) for our meat source and catch-and-release billfish but consume other gamefish. I also "eat what I kill" hunting, usually game birds including wild turkeys. We buy fresh produce from local farmers (since I'm the "Angel of Death" for maintaining a garden).

 

[Dalton Veitch]

I get irritated that the advertising industry thinks, at least here in Australia, that we believe "natural" is always good. Death is natural, lots of poisons are natural. Natural means the whole gamut of life, but excluding the "unnatural" or man-made.
Products are constantly presented as full of natural ingredients, natural flavouring, natural colouring, natural preservatives.
Now many natural things are great, such as picking and eating naturally ripened peas in your garden, or naturally ripened bananas. Just wish the advertising industry would pull their heads in.

 

[Roark_John]

Good point Dalton.

I'm not fond of green-washing or pandering to the naivete and hopeful wishes of consumers...after all, advertising is about drumming up business, which is all about more of the same, just repackaged in feel-good trappings.

That being said, I don't believe GMOs are good for people or the planet. There is always backlash from man's meddling with what he barely understands. To paraphrase John Donne "Man's reach exceeds his grasp".

Only a century on from the advent of technology through chemistry are we finding that many of the things we take for granted today are harming us. Not the least of which are asbestos, mercury, nicotine additives, cyanide, soy compounds (artificial though naturally occuring hormone emulators), BPA...the list goes on and on.

I don't think anyone can argue that chemical leech fields and industrial pollution like Love Canal or the recent deluge from the Polish manufacturing plant that damaged the waterways in Eastern Europe, let alone nuclear waste are good for us or any other living creature.

I'm not advocating a return to the dark ages or even encouraging giving up modern conveniences, just an awareness of the law of unintended consequences and taking responsibility for ourselves, rather than catering to the bottom line of corporations that care only about profits regardless of the true cost.

If anyone is "too busy" to be concerned about their health at the moment they are damaging it, then they have no right to be concerned about their health after they damaged it. Forgoing convenience now may actually improve our quality of life in our twilight years. For that reason alone, I am willing to avoid processed foods and unnecessary chemicals every chance I get.

I get irritated that the advertising industry thinks, at least here in Australia, that we believe "natural" is always good. Death is natural, lots of poisons are natural. Natural means the whole gamut of life, but excluding the "unnatural" or man-made.
Products are constantly presented as full of natural ingredients, natural flavouring, natural colouring, natural preservatives.
Now many natural things are great, such as picking and eating naturally ripened peas in your garden, or naturally ripened bananas. Just wish the advertising industry would pull their heads in.

 

[roaldin]

The answer to the specific question of definition:-

Everything is natural.
The belief that they, and the things they do, are outside nature (or indeed the animal kingdom) makes Humans comical but, I'm afraid, still natural.

As Dalton said, seen from the perspective of the human (and those things they impact upon) some things may be "bad" but they are still - Natural.

As for the things that harm us and the things we know:- Time is a biggie, and Life has a way of ending badly.

To paraphrase - The Universe is big, really big. It may seem like a long way to the chemist's but that's nothing compared to space...



The answer to the question I think you are really asking:-

42


Just another monkey. *

*(Yeah I know but "monkey" scans better)

 

[roaldin]

In reality I think most people choose convenience over "natural". The label that says "natural" may ease the conscience a bit but...

If I want I can live off my property - do I do so... not really... but one day...

My property can provide fish (both salt and freshwater), other seafood, fruit, nuts, herbs, mushrooms, game (inc' duck, natives, rabbit, goose for special occasions and even swan if a queen wanders by).
Vegetables, chicken eggs and other livestock would be easy... Hmmm - Now that I think about it...

Having all that available but still living on what most would consider a reasonably healthy but modern diet is about as natural an idiocy as any other human activity I can think of.

Tim. (Waiting for a monolith)

 

[Roark_John]

From a terrestrial source and natural are entirely different things. 99% of the toxic compounds affecting us are synthesized...meaning they don't occur in that state in nature. Mother Nature is a crafty bitch...she has figured out how to make almost everything on this planet as neutral as possible. And then there are those lovely man-made elements on the periodic chart, which are most certainly not natural, even though they were made here on earth.

I highly doubt we can kill the earth, but we can sure as hell poison ourselves and any living thing within our reach.

Just because man can think something up does not make it natural. To me, natural is a state of being or occuring in nature. I think that's a fairly reasonable definition, wouldn't you?

 

[roaldin]

No.

We are a part of nature and everything we do/make/think is natural.

It occurred - it occurred within nature - it is natural.

Do I think everything is for the better - definitely no. I agree with most of what has been said (particularly the poisoning). I just don't agree on the "natural" point.

As for nature being "neutral" I disagree. There are many extremes that mother nature has provided, the biomass we are a part of has merely evolved to cope with it's immediate environment/s in one way or another.

To think that anything we can dream up is outside of "natural" is simply natural human arrogance.


To disagree is also natural - wouldn't you agree?

Tim.

 

[Roark_John]

We are an arrogant species for sure.

So...just to test the fallacy of our arguments...

Is it natural or unnatural to think of ourselves outside the realm of nature, ie separate from the animal kingdom and above the ecosystems we live in?

A realistic look at what people truly believe will tell you whether what we do is natural or not...otherwise everyone would be a scientist, inventor or creator...instead of merely riding on the backs of giants.

And yes, disagreeing is natural. However killing your own species over those disagreements is NOT natural.

No.

We are a part of nature and everything we do/make/think is natural.

It occured - it occured within nature - it is natural.

Do I think everything is for the better - definitely no. I agree with most of what has been said, I just don't agree on the "natural" point.

To think that anything we can dream up is outside of "natural" is simply natural human arrogance.


To disagree is also natural - wouldn't you agree?

Tim.

 

[roaldin]

Edited my post above slightly before seeing your message.

To answer your question - natural - it happens.

We are all along for the ride - scientists, inventors, creators all. In the end we will all be the same.

Killing each other over stupid things is entirely natural and should be included as one of the definitive markers of "human nature".
Doesn't make it good though...


I (almost) quoted it before and I'll do it again - The Universe is big, really big. It may seem like a long way to the chemist's but that's nothing compared to space...

Those "giants" are pretty small.


Tim.

 

[Roark_John]

Or another way of looking at it is that if we create it, it can't be natural because nature is not dependent on our creations to survive, but we are dependent on nature's creations to survive. Were it not for her resources, we would have nothing to re-create.

It's not natural to commit suicide, murder or enslave members of the same species. No other creature on earth does all these things wholesale as a species, let alone so effectively. Nature's drive is to SURVIVE, to THRIVE. That we manage to on a whole is only an example of a system trying to compensate and balance the equation...because on several succeeding layers we do our damnedest not to survive OR thrive.

Nature is an independent entity of man, but man is not an independent entity of nature. We may define words and explanations, but we don't define reality. All science is, is a way of verifying observations. We wouldn't need science if our will was creating those things we observe.

That's how I know that man-made is not natural.

 

[Roark_John]

Edited my post above slightly before seeing your message.

To answer your question - natural - it happens.

As an organism, all of what we do isn't a process of our life in order to function. That being said, I can agree with you...all of the universe is the playing field and we are but a small part, so whatever we do is within nature. I still don't see how what we cause to happen as being the same as what happens as a result of a natural process...ionic exchange, entropy, etc.

We are all along for the ride - scientists, inventors, creators all. In the end we will all be the same.

Killing each other over stupid things is entirely natural and should be included as one of the definitive markers of "human nature".
Doesn't make it good though...


I (almost) quoted it before and I'll do it again - The Universe is big, really big. It may seem like a long way to the chemist's but that's nothing compared to space...

Those "giants" are pretty small.

Those "giants" are indeed small...but all of them contributed to the ability of a relatively weak hairless ape to escape the bonds of gravity and exert control over certain naturally occurring phenomenon. Not exactly a nothing event when looked at as building blocks...and that's how big steps are made.

Tim.

And if 42 is the answer...what the hell was the question?

 

[roaldin]

Or another way of looking at it is that if we create it, it can't be natural because nature is not dependent on our creations to survive, but we are dependent on nature's creations to survive. Were it not for her resources, we would have nothing to re-create.

I don't think dependance has anything to do with nature or our part in it, it simply is what it is.
A Cat doesn't need to be a Tiger but a Tiger MUST be a Cat.
Nature doesn't need to have Human/human activity but a Human/Human activity MUST be natural.

It's not natural to commit suicide, murder or enslave members of the same species. No other creature on earth does all these things wholesale as a species, let alone so effectively. Nature's drive is to SURVIVE, to THRIVE. That we manage to on a whole is only an example of a system trying to compensate and balance the equation...because on several succeeding layers we do our damnedest not to survive OR thrive.

It is Life's nature to survive and thrive, not nature's.
The fact that we are in plague and diminishing our resources and damaging our environment simply puts us in the same boat as locusts etc - all natural. Indeed most life on Earth does the same thing if it gets the opportunity.
I disagree about the "no other creature" but I don't see it as relevant. No other creature looks like an Octopus but it's still natural.

Nature is an independent entity of man, but man is not an independent entity of nature. We may define words and explanations, but we don't define reality. All science is, is a way of verifying observations. We wouldn't need science if our will was creating those things we observe.

See discussion 1 above.
Basic disagreement - Nature includes Man. Man is a part of it. Necessary - no, but so what - unnecessary things are natural.
Reality is what it is.

That's how I know that man-made is not natural.

The only unnatural thing around here is this keyboard...



Tim.