Superlite GTA

I'd have to disagree.

I think if anything, Fran has shown with this thread exactly what he said " dilemma".... In reading this, I think i'd step back from this, and look at my options. I think going in another direction would be a good idea..... I'd see what other ideas may ultimately alter, or bring me back to the current design. Most likely along the way there better things will come out of it.

Just my worthless 2 cents.
B.
 
That make me want to ask Fran a question....

Did you ever had any doubts on the SL-C project like you do this one?
 
RCRDREAM'R that isn't really a fair question. First of the SL-C is NOT A BUDGET BUILD when viewed in the context of this thread!!!!! It's NOT a car that cuts corners anywhere and going in you fully expect to be between 80-100K NOT 30-40. NOW having said that the SL-C was intended to be budget friendly (LOL BUDGET FRIENDLY AT 80K-100K) but compared to teams running million dollar budgets at a fraction of the price WHICH FITS RCR-R's business model. Think of the apex as a boxster compared to the 918 in both design and philosophy and you will start to understand. I'm sure Fran at some point had moments of serious reflection HOWEVER at the price point of the SL-C MOST of the nit picking never comes into play because lets face it people with that kind of $ don't nit pick or kill a product before it comes to market. They just change things to their liking once delivered. I'm not calling people NOT getting and SL-C petty BUT if you read MOST of these posts asking for the moon from a LOW BUDGET BUILD and than look at it from a manufacturers eyes you can see where YOU ALL ARE MAKING IT MORE TROUBLE THAN IT'S WORTH!!!!!
Fran don't mean to put words in your mouth but this has gone on long enough and it seems SOMEONE has to be blunt because people just don't seem to understand. I for one would LOVE to see the APEX come to fruition but only because I hold RCR in the highest regard and as a planned SL-C owner (little behind my target Fran I know) I want to see the company grow and staurate the market. Remeber guys Fran will build you ANYTHING you want BUT YOU HAVE TO PAY EXTRA FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Damian,

You've definetly brought to light a few points that I did not consider for sure, and yes your right, it's not exactly fair to compare the SL-C with the APEX......

B.
 
I think you "could" do SL-C for $65k (and I think it has been done a couple of times), just don't start doing the extra little things a lot of people get caught up in.

Though, yes, you could never build an SL-C for the proposed price of the Apex
 
I think you "could" do SL-C for $65k (and I think it has been done a couple of times), just don't start doing the extra little things a lot of people get caught up in.

Though, yes, you could never build an SL-C for the proposed price of the Apex


$65k? That only leaves you a $21k buffer for drive train electrical, fuel system, fluids, exhaust, sound deadening interior and fasteners etc. I think $65k would be extremely tight. That would almost certainly be using a lot of used parts and no paint.


Fasteners...when I worked out my SL-C build budget, I allowed $2,500 for fasteners. I have hardly got started with my parts procurement and already I suspect that fasteners are going to be my budget buster!


Just my 2 cents worth.
Jim
 
This thread has over 100k views, the only other thread that comes close was started in 2007... I think that stat alone should speak for itself.

Great point!

Fran, I think it's very commendable that you have been willing to stick your neck out to bring a new approach to this hobby that will help a new generation of builders get involved.

My thoughts echo those of Mr. Wolfe. I was initially excited in the project by the prospect of bringing OEM quality to the weak points (historically) of almost all kits - doors and seals, DOT windshield and functional wiper, cabin crashworthiness, working side glass, door locks, seat and steering wheel positioning, climate control, interior design, engine management, instrumentation, emissions. The real gravy is that these areas are among the most time-consuming to deal with.

Although I think I will be in a position soon to go forward with something like the SL-C, I'd have to sell my Lotus, which I'd rather keep. So that makes me a target Apex customer. While I'm by far most interested in the original plan (parts only, builder converts own donor car), I'd consider the roller option. If the original kit is released in the $22-27k range, I'll definitely put an order in early next year, or sooner. If a non-refundable deposit were required to reserve, I'd write that check tomorrow.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Great point!

Fran, I think it's very commendable that you have been willing to stick your neck out to bring a new approach to this hobby that will help a new generation of builders get involved.

Not exactly new...years ago there was a component car who manufactured a neo-classic replica that used a MG tub/doors on an LTD frame, IIRC. I wish I could remember the name...but it was very long ago and the neo-classics seem to be out of favor now in the industry. [Edit....was it the Spectre???]

I haven't posted on this thread for a long time....but I've been following the developments. I had a '99 Eclipse and loved the interior, would be more than happy to use one as a center section for many of the reasons previously voiced on this thread. I like the idea that Fran has stuck his neck out for the community...but I also understand the reality of return on investment and Fran's concern that the market might not be ready for such a specific product as this. His styling exercises are, as usual, exciting. Given Fran's experience with chassis development, perhaps there's a place for a different product of his own design, perhaps one that could use salvaged interior parts from an existing vehicle to complete the interior. I've often wondered why nobody makes a mid-engined component car that could use the mechanicals from a Honda Accord...there must be millions of them out there at very affordable prices, and Honda's VTEC V-6 was recently named as one of the top 10 engines in the world (saw it on PBSs "Motor Week" program, can't remember who made the list).

Factory Five carved out a huge fan base with their donor car approach. There IS a demand for that concept, obviously...my choice would be to see the GTA reach the market in SOME form...but, guys 'n' gals, we need guys like Fran in the business, and they can't stay in business without a profit...as a whole lot of component car companies have shown in the past. Fran has shown that if it can be done, he'll be able to do it...considering how unique this project is, maybe it can't be done within the demographic at which Fran is aiming...and if that is the case, there's an RCR alternative right up the food chain that is VERY appealing!

Cheers!

Doug
 
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Fran...here's my 2 cents...you've made it clear a hundred times that you only build what you like and interests you. Same approach should apply here.

If you are still excited about the car...build it. I'm sure it'll sell...all us junkies will still be in line, just waiting to buy a hit of the newest RCR dope.

If you're not into anymore...scrap it, and lets see what's next.

I'm kinda bummed about the Razor though...
 
I am aiming for a budget of around there on mine. True, I'm not counting things like delivery charge and whatnot, but. I already have the engine and electrical, and start the build in a few months when I get home. The only "used" parts will be the engine (rebuilding it), and the transaxle.

I've been keeping up with Zoey's build. He is very meticulous, and he is putting in a lot of things I don't plan on. His current tally is $84k, but that is including tools at $2k, $3k Tillett seats, extra street tail, his travel time to visit the factory, and a lot of other options. I'm keeping my build rather basic for a while, and will fab and add to it as I go. That's the great thing about it, it's easy to build on, heck, you take the whole body off in a day.
No, I'm not painting mine for a while. I'm running the gel coat for a while, plus, give me an idea what color to eventually paint it.
 
I went to RCR this week to pick up my SLC, and spent quite a bit of time talking to Fran about the Apex situation. As you read what follows, keep in mind that my professional background includes analyzing why companies grow and prosper, chug along at about the same production level, or end up ultimately failing and going out of business.

I drove up to RCR pulling a trailer with a ’99 Eclipse which I had bought because it had never been hit, had no rust, and a nice interior. It was an automatic with the undesirable 420A motor. Yes, this SLC buyer had also signed up for an Apex! We’ll get back to this seeming incongruity later…

Before I even got a glimpse of my SLC, Fran drove me off-site to a cluttered warehouse facility where various RCR bodies such as a D-type were in various stages of finish sanding (some of you know what a fiberglass shop looks and feels like), and there sat a complete Apex body bonded to an Eclipse center section.

The car is GORGEOUS.

We then spent a lot of time talking about the future of the Apex project and Fran’s current internal dilemma about the car. He was quite candid about the fact that other recent and near-future RCR offerings, particularly the LMP-1, have been so exciting that his passion for them has overshadowed his interest in the Apex. As he put it, “I LOVE the SLC and the LMP-1. I LIKE the Apex, but it doesn’t give me the same thrill when I think about it as those two cars do. And I’ve already spent a ton of money on development, but I can’t afford to continue if I have to build and sell five hundred units just to get back my development costs. That’s time I could spend building more of my existing cars where the development costs have already been paid off.”

We then talked about product development, and the irony that a car like the devastatingly potent LMP-1 was considerably easier and less expensive to design and bring to market than the entry-level Apex. Consider: The body of the LMP-1 meant splashing a mold from an original Cadillac race car, whereas the Apex required making a full size clay model from scratch (just like GM does when they design a new car) before a mold could be made. The LMP-1 chassis is very similar in design to the SLC, GT40, T70, etc. in terms of using the same square, rectangular, and flat aluminum material, just with different dimensions to end up with proper chassis stiffness, wheelbase length, and track width. The Apex required Fran to start completely from scratch. I believe that JUST THE BODY of the Apex has consumed more of Fran’s money (in development costs to build the first unit) than the ENTIRE LMP-1 program!

Fran’s problem is that the whole purpose of the Apex was to keep the price low enough to bring in buyers to RCR/Superlite that are not (yet) prospects for a $90,000 fair-weather toy. These are people who CAN afford to spend $25,000 (all-in) on a custom car, but a roadster-only design (like a Cobra replica or FF 818) means it’s $25,000 for something that’s still a toy.

This, I have thought from Day One, was the genius of the Apex: By using the Eclipse center section, with OEM doors, windows, and interior, you ended up with a high performance mid-engined custom car that was weatherproof, as secure against theft or break-in as a factory sedan, and had the finished interior look and feel of a “real” car.

Fran said “You really LIKE the Apex, don’t you?” He was referring to the odd notion that an SLC purchaser would be lobbying so hard to keep the Apex alive.

“Compared to my SLC?” I answered. “No. No contest. But back when you first told me about it, I thought your design concept of taking an Eclipse, putting the drivetrain in the back, giving it killer brakes and suspension, and a drop-dead gorgeous body, was pure genius. I’m not a turbo four guy; I like the power delivery, sound, and feel of a V-8. I saw the Apex as the perfect way to get the younger turbo four guys into the RCR fold. But as soon as you told me RCR would support the LS4 drivetrain in the Apex, I found an engine/trans combo out of an Impala SS for $2000 and ordered an Apex. This will be a car I can leave parked at the Multiplex for the day while I attend the Sam Peckinpah film festival, or toss the keys to one of my girlfriends for her to go peacocking in it. There’s no way either of those things is ever going to happen with my 740 horsepower SLC.”

Fran started thinking out loud, and said the Apex could keep its $19,995 price point and earn back its development costs in 30 units instead of several hundred if the kit used customer-sourced late model Corvette suspension and brake components. I asked if the car could be designed to handle almost as well with these pieces instead of custom ones.

“Exactly the same. It’s just a matter of putting the pick-up points in the right place.”

“Well, there’s your answer. That stuff’s all over, and the customer can either find it himself, or you can sell him new pieces at cost, his choice.”

Fran was thoughtful. “Even though other people have been successful doing it, I’m not wild about the idea of used parts in an RCR/Superlite product.”

“You’re already doing it,” I reminded him. “The D-type uses XJ6 front suspension, and a solid rear axle out of something-or-other.”

“But that’s my first front-engined car...”

“What does the engine location have to do with anything? And if you think about it, you may be already doing it with the SLC as well. The standard brakes in the SLC kit have “Chevrolet” cast into the calipers—they’re ZO6 units, right? On my SLC, I could have insisted you give me a brake delete credit, and I could have gone to one of my Corvette racer buddies and swapped him some ammo or fireworks or books or something for some ZO6 take-off calipers and rotors, and my SLC would be just as good a car as it is with you supplying all new parts. Is anyone going to care if the fuel pump or oil tank in my SLC came off a wrecked Sprint car? I don’t think so.” I could see the wheels turning…

“Look,” I went on, “there will probably always be enough guys out there every year for RCR to stay in business at a decent profit with your existing product line of cars that cost $75,000 and up to build. But if you get a bunch of guys building Apexes, in a few years you’ll have a lot more people ready to step up to the high-end stuff. They will be either Apex builders that had additional financial success, or more-affluent people who learned about RCR when they saw an Apex and asked about it and the designer.”

I thought of something. “Like RCR’s upcoming $63,000 kit, which will weigh 3100 pounds when completed. The $63,000 kit price includes a Graziano AWD Audi transaxle with 2.36:1 ring and pinion. We’re talking, of course, about the 2015 RCR Veyron replica. Customer supplies normal Z-rated tires and 1000 HP turbo LS motor. All-in cost: One tenth of the original.”

Does this sound like a good plan, Fran?

JR

[Author’s Note: Keep in mind that I am a novelist. In this recounting, I have taken a few literary liberties with the dialogue and may be leaving the reader with the impression that I talked Fran into proceeding with the Apex. I didn’t. I don’t know if Fran is ultimately going to scrap the Apex or not, but I know that he is listening to serious potential buyers, and he seems to be leaning in the direction of keeping to the stated kit price and leaving out the parts the customer can easily get elsewhere.

What I CAN tell you without any hype is that Fran has three Apex bodies in hand, he has one other customer who has ordered an Apex (set up for 4G63T, I assume), he has my LS4 Impala drivetrain at his shop, he had Vickie type up a 50% deposit invoice on an Apex for me, and I paid that invoice on Thursday. So there will be at least two Apex cars running around getting potential customers excited.

Oh, and I completely made up that stuff about the 2015 RCR Veyron replica. The truth is, I have no idea what year it will be released…]
 
Great point!

Fran, I think it's very commendable that you have been willing to stick your neck out to bring a new approach to this hobby that will help a new generation of builders get involved.

My thoughts echo those of Mr. Wolfe. I was initially excited in the project by the prospect of bringing OEM quality to the weak points (historically) of almost all kits - doors and seals, DOT windshield and functional wiper, cabin crashworthiness, working side glass, door locks, seat and steering wheel positioning, climate control, interior design, engine management, instrumentation, emissions. The real gravy is that these areas are among the most time-consuming to deal with.

Although I think I will be in a position soon to go forward with something like the SL-C, I'd have to sell my Lotus, which I'd rather keep. So that makes me a target Apex customer. While I'm by far most interested in the original plan (parts only, builder converts own donor car), I'd consider the roller option. If the original kit is released in the $22-27k range, I'll definitely put an order in early next year, or sooner. If a non-refundable deposit were required to reserve, I'd write that check tomorrow.

I am in the exact same boat as you. Building an SL-C means parting from my M3 and I just don't want to do that (yet). I can keep the M3 and build an Apex which is what most excites me.

Mr. Wolfe
 
Hey John, did you snap any pics of the apex where the body is mounted??? I'm sure Fran is holding out on us to see the interest of the car. I think seeing the car in that state would definitely change opinions of those that are on the fence about the car.
 
I went to RCR this week to pick up my SLC, and spent quite a bit of time talking to Fran about the Apex situation. As you read what follows, keep in mind that my professional background includes analyzing why companies grow and prosper, chug along at about the same production level, or end up ultimately failing and going out of business.

I drove up to RCR pulling a trailer with a ’99 Eclipse which I had bought because it had never been hit, had no rust, and a nice interior. It was an automatic with the undesirable 420A motor. Yes, this SLC buyer had also signed up for an Apex! We’ll get back to this seeming incongruity later…

Before I even got a glimpse of my SLC, Fran drove me off-site to a cluttered warehouse facility where various RCR bodies such as a D-type were in various stages of finish sanding (some of you know what a fiberglass shop looks and feels like), and there sat a complete Apex body bonded to an Eclipse center section.

The car is GORGEOUS.

We then spent a lot of time talking about the future of the Apex project and Fran’s current internal dilemma about the car. He was quite candid about the fact that other recent and near-future RCR offerings, particularly the LMP-1, have been so exciting that his passion for them has overshadowed his interest in the Apex. As he put it, “I LOVE the SLC and the LMP-1. I LIKE the Apex, but it doesn’t give me the same thrill when I think about it as those two cars do. And I’ve already spent a ton of money on development, but I can’t afford to continue if I have to build and sell five hundred units just to get back my development costs. That’s time I could spend building more of my existing cars where the development costs have already been paid off.”

We then talked about product development, and the irony that a car like the devastatingly potent LMP-1 was considerably easier and less expensive to design and bring to market than the entry-level Apex. Consider: The body of the LMP-1 meant splashing a mold from an original Cadillac race car, whereas the Apex required making a full size clay model from scratch (just like GM does when they design a new car) before a mold could be made. The LMP-1 chassis is very similar in design to the SLC, GT40, T70, etc. in terms of using the same square, rectangular, and flat aluminum material, just with different dimensions to end up with proper chassis stiffness, wheelbase length, and track width. The Apex required Fran to start completely from scratch. I believe that JUST THE BODY of the Apex has consumed more of Fran’s money (in development costs to build the first unit) than the ENTIRE LMP-1 program!

Fran’s problem is that the whole purpose of the Apex was to keep the price low enough to bring in buyers to RCR/Superlite that are not (yet) prospects for a $90,000 fair-weather toy. These are people who CAN afford to spend $25,000 (all-in) on a custom car, but a roadster-only design (like a Cobra replica or FF 818) means it’s $25,000 for something that’s still a toy.

This, I have thought from Day One, was the genius of the Apex: By using the Eclipse center section, with OEM doors, windows, and interior, you ended up with a high performance mid-engined custom car that was weatherproof, as secure against theft or break-in as a factory sedan, and had the finished interior look and feel of a “real” car.

Fran said “You really LIKE the Apex, don’t you?” He was referring to the odd notion that an SLC purchaser would be lobbying so hard to keep the Apex alive.

“Compared to my SLC?” I answered. “No. No contest. But back when you first told me about it, I thought your design concept of taking an Eclipse, putting the drivetrain in the back, giving it killer brakes and suspension, and a drop-dead gorgeous body, was pure genius. I’m not a turbo four guy; I like the power delivery, sound, and feel of a V-8. I saw the Apex as the perfect way to get the younger turbo four guys into the RCR fold. But as soon as you told me RCR would support the LS4 drivetrain in the Apex, I found an engine/trans combo out of an Impala SS for $2000 and ordered an Apex. This will be a car I can leave parked at the Multiplex for the day while I attend the Sam Peckinpah film festival, or toss the keys to one of my girlfriends for her to go peacocking in it. There’s no way either of those things is ever going to happen with my 740 horsepower SLC.”

Fran started thinking out loud, and said the Apex could keep its $19,995 price point and earn back its development costs in 30 units instead of several hundred if the kit used customer-sourced late model Corvette suspension and brake components. I asked if the car could be designed to handle almost as well with these pieces instead of custom ones.

“Exactly the same. It’s just a matter of putting the pick-up points in the right place.”

“Well, there’s your answer. That stuff’s all over, and the customer can either find it himself, or you can sell him new pieces at cost, his choice.”

Fran was thoughtful. “Even though other people have been successful doing it, I’m not wild about the idea of used parts in an RCR/Superlite product.”

“You’re already doing it,” I reminded him. “The D-type uses XJ6 front suspension, and a solid rear axle out of something-or-other.”

“But that’s my first front-engined car...”

“What does the engine location have to do with anything? And if you think about it, you may be already doing it with the SLC as well. The standard brakes in the SLC kit have “Chevrolet” cast into the calipers—they’re ZO6 units, right? On my SLC, I could have insisted you give me a brake delete credit, and I could have gone to one of my Corvette racer buddies and swapped him some ammo or fireworks or books or something for some ZO6 take-off calipers and rotors, and my SLC would be just as good a car as it is with you supplying all new parts. Is anyone going to care if the fuel pump or oil tank in my SLC came off a wrecked Sprint car? I don’t think so.” I could see the wheels turning…

“Look,” I went on, “there will probably always be enough guys out there every year for RCR to stay in business at a decent profit with your existing product line of cars that cost $75,000 and up to build. But if you get a bunch of guys building Apexes, in a few years you’ll have a lot more people ready to step up to the high-end stuff. They will be either Apex builders that had additional financial success, or more-affluent people who learned about RCR when they saw an Apex and asked about it and the designer.”

I thought of something. “Like RCR’s upcoming $63,000 kit, which will weigh 3100 pounds when completed. The $63,000 kit price includes a Graziano AWD Audi transaxle with 2.36:1 ring and pinion. We’re talking, of course, about the 2015 RCR Veyron replica. Customer supplies normal Z-rated tires and 1000 HP turbo LS motor. All-in cost: One tenth of the original.”

Does this sound like a good plan, Fran?

JR

[Author’s Note: Keep in mind that I am a novelist. In this recounting, I have taken a few literary liberties with the dialogue and may be leaving the reader with the impression that I talked Fran into proceeding with the Apex. I didn’t. I don’t know if Fran is ultimately going to scrap the Apex or not, but I know that he is listening to serious potential buyers, and he seems to be leaning in the direction of keeping to the stated kit price and leaving out the parts the customer can easily get elsewhere.

What I CAN tell you without any hype is that Fran has three Apex bodies in hand, he has one other customer who has ordered an Apex (set up for 4G63T, I assume), he has my LS4 Impala drivetrain at his shop, he had Vickie type up a 50% deposit invoice on an Apex for me, and I paid that invoice on Thursday. So there will be at least two Apex cars running around getting potential customers excited.

Oh, and I completely made up that stuff about the 2015 RCR Veyron replica. The truth is, I have no idea what year it will be released…]


John
thanks for the write up. I like the concept of the Apex coming out for 20K and have the builders buy all additional parts. I am fine with that. like you I am really interested in the apex for a couple of reasons. 1. price (20K). 2. Eclipse center cabin. 3. the looks. awesome looking car.
I would be thrilled if the Apex came out around 20K and all I had to do was buy the drive line (motor & trans), and buying the addition parts like suspension and brakes I am fine with that. FFR is doing that with the 818.

I find it interesting that Fran already has a couple of kits sold. I think there is a huge group of people interested in this car at the price range and 4\turbo engines.
 
I went to RCR this week to pick up my SLC, and spent quite a bit of time talking to Fran about the Apex situation. As you read what follows, keep in mind that my professional background includes analyzing why companies grow and prosper, chug along at about the same production level, or end up ultimately failing and going out of business.

I drove up to RCR pulling a trailer with a ’99 Eclipse which I had bought because it had never been hit, had no rust, and a nice interior. It was an automatic with the undesirable 420A motor. Yes, this SLC buyer had also signed up for an Apex! We’ll get back to this seeming incongruity later…

Before I even got a glimpse of my SLC, Fran drove me off-site to a cluttered warehouse facility where various RCR bodies such as a D-type were in various stages of finish sanding (some of you know what a fiberglass shop looks and feels like), and there sat a complete Apex body bonded to an Eclipse center section.

The car is GORGEOUS.

We then spent a lot of time talking about the future of the Apex project and Fran’s current internal dilemma about the car. He was quite candid about the fact that other recent and near-future RCR offerings, particularly the LMP-1, have been so exciting that his passion for them has overshadowed his interest in the Apex. As he put it, “I LOVE the SLC and the LMP-1. I LIKE the Apex, but it doesn’t give me the same thrill when I think about it as those two cars do. And I’ve already spent a ton of money on development, but I can’t afford to continue if I have to build and sell five hundred units just to get back my development costs. That’s time I could spend building more of my existing cars where the development costs have already been paid off.”

We then talked about product development, and the irony that a car like the devastatingly potent LMP-1 was considerably easier and less expensive to design and bring to market than the entry-level Apex. Consider: The body of the LMP-1 meant splashing a mold from an original Cadillac race car, whereas the Apex required making a full size clay model from scratch (just like GM does when they design a new car) before a mold could be made. The LMP-1 chassis is very similar in design to the SLC, GT40, T70, etc. in terms of using the same square, rectangular, and flat aluminum material, just with different dimensions to end up with proper chassis stiffness, wheelbase length, and track width. The Apex required Fran to start completely from scratch. I believe that JUST THE BODY of the Apex has consumed more of Fran’s money (in development costs to build the first unit) than the ENTIRE LMP-1 program!

Fran’s problem is that the whole purpose of the Apex was to keep the price low enough to bring in buyers to RCR/Superlite that are not (yet) prospects for a $90,000 fair-weather toy. These are people who CAN afford to spend $25,000 (all-in) on a custom car, but a roadster-only design (like a Cobra replica or FF 818) means it’s $25,000 for something that’s still a toy.

This, I have thought from Day One, was the genius of the Apex: By using the Eclipse center section, with OEM doors, windows, and interior, you ended up with a high performance mid-engined custom car that was weatherproof, as secure against theft or break-in as a factory sedan, and had the finished interior look and feel of a “real” car.

Fran said “You really LIKE the Apex, don’t you?” He was referring to the odd notion that an SLC purchaser would be lobbying so hard to keep the Apex alive.

“Compared to my SLC?” I answered. “No. No contest. But back when you first told me about it, I thought your design concept of taking an Eclipse, putting the drivetrain in the back, giving it killer brakes and suspension, and a drop-dead gorgeous body, was pure genius. I’m not a turbo four guy; I like the power delivery, sound, and feel of a V-8. I saw the Apex as the perfect way to get the younger turbo four guys into the RCR fold. But as soon as you told me RCR would support the LS4 drivetrain in the Apex, I found an engine/trans combo out of an Impala SS for $2000 and ordered an Apex. This will be a car I can leave parked at the Multiplex for the day while I attend the Sam Peckinpah film festival, or toss the keys to one of my girlfriends for her to go peacocking in it. There’s no way either of those things is ever going to happen with my 740 horsepower SLC.”

Fran started thinking out loud, and said the Apex could keep its $19,995 price point and earn back its development costs in 30 units instead of several hundred if the kit used customer-sourced late model Corvette suspension and brake components. I asked if the car could be designed to handle almost as well with these pieces instead of custom ones.

“Exactly the same. It’s just a matter of putting the pick-up points in the right place.”

“Well, there’s your answer. That stuff’s all over, and the customer can either find it himself, or you can sell him new pieces at cost, his choice.”

Fran was thoughtful. “Even though other people have been successful doing it, I’m not wild about the idea of used parts in an RCR/Superlite product.”

“You’re already doing it,” I reminded him. “The D-type uses XJ6 front suspension, and a solid rear axle out of something-or-other.”

“But that’s my first front-engined car...”

“What does the engine location have to do with anything? And if you think about it, you may be already doing it with the SLC as well. The standard brakes in the SLC kit have “Chevrolet” cast into the calipers—they’re ZO6 units, right? On my SLC, I could have insisted you give me a brake delete credit, and I could have gone to one of my Corvette racer buddies and swapped him some ammo or fireworks or books or something for some ZO6 take-off calipers and rotors, and my SLC would be just as good a car as it is with you supplying all new parts. Is anyone going to care if the fuel pump or oil tank in my SLC came off a wrecked Sprint car? I don’t think so.” I could see the wheels turning…

“Look,” I went on, “there will probably always be enough guys out there every year for RCR to stay in business at a decent profit with your existing product line of cars that cost $75,000 and up to build. But if you get a bunch of guys building Apexes, in a few years you’ll have a lot more people ready to step up to the high-end stuff. They will be either Apex builders that had additional financial success, or more-affluent people who learned about RCR when they saw an Apex and asked about it and the designer.”

I thought of something. “Like RCR’s upcoming $63,000 kit, which will weigh 3100 pounds when completed. The $63,000 kit price includes a Graziano AWD Audi transaxle with 2.36:1 ring and pinion. We’re talking, of course, about the 2015 RCR Veyron replica. Customer supplies normal Z-rated tires and 1000 HP turbo LS motor. All-in cost: One tenth of the original.”

Does this sound like a good plan, Fran?

JR

[Author’s Note: Keep in mind that I am a novelist. In this recounting, I have taken a few literary liberties with the dialogue and may be leaving the reader with the impression that I talked Fran into proceeding with the Apex. I didn’t. I don’t know if Fran is ultimately going to scrap the Apex or not, but I know that he is listening to serious potential buyers, and he seems to be leaning in the direction of keeping to the stated kit price and leaving out the parts the customer can easily get elsewhere.

What I CAN tell you without any hype is that Fran has three Apex bodies in hand, he has one other customer who has ordered an Apex (set up for 4G63T, I assume), he has my LS4 Impala drivetrain at his shop, he had Vickie type up a 50% deposit invoice on an Apex for me, and I paid that invoice on Thursday. So there will be at least two Apex cars running around getting potential customers excited.

Oh, and I completely made up that stuff about the 2015 RCR Veyron replica. The truth is, I have no idea what year it will be released…]

John, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this, thank you.

This is all my opinion, but I have many friends that would agree with this statement I am about to make. Once you build your first kit car, it's in your blood. You can't go back. If Fran can put that IV into a 100 twenty-some year olds (hell, even 30 and 40 year olds like myself), there is a high probability of coming back for future purchases.

I built my FFR Roadster a few years back and it's still all I think about. (the building process) The last couple of years I have been remodeling my house, but I am anxious for my next project around the spring of 2014. I will be buying something for my next fix and I just hope the Apex is a choice, as it is my fist choice as of now.

Mr. Wolfe
 
Keep the price point and allow the customer to source or buy RCR components sounds like a great idea. Still love the concept and 2nd hand parts make this much easier sell.
 
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Fran does have to recoup expenses. I'm sure there were several iterations and modifications made in clay before molds were taken. Do you know the average salary for an automotive clay modeler? North of about $100K/year. There are not herds of these guy's either!
 
Thanks for an excellent post - some really good, and encouraging, points there.

And I’ve already spent a ton of money on development, but I can’t afford to continue if I have to build and sell five hundred units just to get back my development costs.
What is already spent is gone. I would be looking at the additional cost to enter production and if that will make a profit, including the opportunity cost.

I saw the Apex as the perfect way to get the younger turbo four guys into the RCR fold.
..
“Look,” I went on, “there will probably always be enough guys out there every year for RCR to stay in business at a decent profit with your existing product line of cars that cost $75,000 and up to build. But if you get a bunch of guys building Apexes, in a few years you’ll have a lot more people ready to step up to the high-end stuff. They will be either Apex builders that had additional financial success, or more-affluent people who learned about RCR when they saw an Apex and asked about it and the designer.”
An excellent point. The Apex was designed to increase the addressable market, but could also increase the market for the high-end. I'd be happy to break-even on the basic Apex and make profit on RCR parts and follow-on car purchases. I'd expect to make money from the Apex on its own though.

Fran started thinking out loud, and said the Apex could keep its $19,995 price point and earn back its development costs in 30 units instead of several hundred if the kit used customer-sourced late model Corvette suspension and brake components.
“Well, there’s your answer. That stuff’s all over, and the customer can either find it himself, or you can sell him new pieces at cost, his choice.”
+1. That sounds like exactly the right approach for this market. Providing RCR suspension, as extra bling for those wanting it (initially or later) is also a good way to show-off features of higher-end RCR cars and increase revenue.

Fran was thoughtful. “Even though other people have been successful doing it, I’m not wild about the idea of used parts in an RCR/Superlite product.”
That would be my reaction, but, if there's a new option (RCR and / or OEM), I'd be less concerned. There will still be those all-important, shinny builds out there.
 
Hey John, did you snap any pics of the apex where the body is mounted??? I'm sure Fran is holding out on us to see the interest of the car. I think seeing the car in that state would definitely change opinions of those that are on the fence about the car.

Sorry, no, I was cramming a day's worth of questions and tasks (like going off-site to see the Apex, getting my Eclipse unloaded, the SLC on the trailer, and chasing a crazy forklift driver away at gunpoint) into a 90-minute window. I'll let Fran take and post the pictures of the Apex.

P.S. The Apex has a trunk at the back end that looks about the right size to hold an overnight bag or a case of beer...

JR
 
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