PeteB
GT40s Supporter
AMG powered SLC Build
- Thread starter MB
- Start date
$5K just for the wiring harness?Do they use solid gold wire? :huh:
The 01 race car had a custom harness made by the guy who does a lot of the ALMS/Tudor cars: It was $20K, all up.
The wire was special, though.
Ok... So if you have a controller that you know will handle the job, and you have the correct software mapped out, my thinking is that a trusted wiring guy, should be able to make a quality harness to include injectors, sensors, etc., at a far more reasonable price. (Hopefully I'm not just being naive; but I have a hard time believing that every single person in this industry is trying to bend us all over the table).
I've been proven wrong in this regard a few times over the past 4 years though...
I've been proven wrong in this regard a few times over the past 4 years though...
Having nothing to do with wiring... I have found through multiple painful and expensive experiences in that there are tons of people in the car industry that will do work for you and I have classified them into the following groups:
1) Skilled and expensive (hard to find)
2) Unskilled and expensive (easy to find)
3) Unskilled and cheap (moderately easier to find)
4) Con artists (random)
Unfortunately I have ended up with a few of the second and third category only to redo the work again. It is simply hard to find true craftsmen who really take care in the work although many believe they do.
I am often happier with option 1 once the hangover of writing the check is over.
Kevin
Agreed... I tend to eventually fall into that category as well. That's probably one of the reasons I am currently building one of the most expensive GTMs (At least it seems that way at times) to date... That and the fact that I've been "ridden hard and put up wet" a few times by people that I trusted...
It's never enjoyable to have to pay multiple times for the same work. ECU set-up for a Merc engine & computer combo would certainly not be something that I would be happy paying for twice.
As you say, finding the right person or company to do a quality job, the first time, and at a reasonable (fair) price is the problem.
Since I would more than likely be buying a used engine, I would also be looking for a shop that specializes in Mercedes engine rebuilds...
I've searched the various forums to try to get a line on a quality shop in the Charlotte area, but without luck. Any help on that front would be greatly appreciated. I'd really like to make contact and visit a couple of shops. I feel that's the only way to find someone who really knows their craft.
My preliminary budget, (not knowing what I don't know), would probably to be in the 20k range for a used AMG 5.5 or 6.3 Engine, Rebuild, Exhaust/Headers, ECU, software map/set-up. Of course, that may change as I learn more about what is really involved... The 5.5 seems to be the most cost effective, as well as being a more bullet-proof engine. Awesome Horsepower and Torque, and doesn't tend to "grenade", as some 6.3 engines have been documented to do.
If I am not able to find a way to make either of these engines work financially and/or logistically, I would have no issue with sticking with the LS3/480 for 1/3 the cost. It is a fantastic engine, making roughly the same hp & torque. At least my mind would be comfortable with the knowledge that I tried... :thumbsup:
Thanks,
Mike
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Fran,
Tell me more...
Tell me more...
- How much HP can the R8 transaxle take?
- How much does the R8 transaxle weigh?
- Will the R8 transaxle fit within the street tail confines?
- I assume the R8 transaxle is a 6 speed manual?!?
- Do you have a a LS to R8 adapter plate/clutch/pressure plate supplier?!?
- About how much is a R8 transaxle?
How much HP can the R8 transaxle take? ...I know that these transaxles are being used upwards of 1000hp with no modifications.
How much does the R8 transaxle weigh? approx. 180lbs
Will the R8 transaxle fit within the street tail confines? yes
I assume the R8 transaxle is a 6 speed manual?!? yes
Do you have a a LS to R8 adapter plate/clutch/pressure plate supplier?!? yes
About how much is a R8 transaxle? $10,000 brand new when purchased with an SLC kit..this includes an LSD and a pressurized oiling system as standard
How much does the R8 transaxle weigh? approx. 180lbs
Will the R8 transaxle fit within the street tail confines? yes
I assume the R8 transaxle is a 6 speed manual?!? yes
Do you have a a LS to R8 adapter plate/clutch/pressure plate supplier?!? yes
About how much is a R8 transaxle? $10,000 brand new when purchased with an SLC kit..this includes an LSD and a pressurized oiling system as standard
I have to say that out of many makes and models in my stable, I never grow tired of hearing my mod'd sc 5.5 turn 7k. It's a muscle car goes to finishing school sound. So much more pleasant than the BMW's that were pacing MotoGP last weekend which (sorry for any owners) sounded like deep pitch fart cans out the turbos.
Looking at trade in values for these things, it has crossed my mind to cannibalize it rather than take the trade in value. The AMG V12 on other hand has to be one of best scarp value engines out there IF you can make it work.
Looking at trade in values for these things, it has crossed my mind to cannibalize it rather than take the trade in value. The AMG V12 on other hand has to be one of best scarp value engines out there IF you can make it work.
Does anyone here know of a site where I can find dimensions of the various AMG engines?
I know that Fran and his crew can work some magic as far as the chassis is concerned, but I am interested in knowing how low the oil pan will sit on one of these engines?
Or is there a source for a replacement pan that would be a little more shallow?
I have been thinking of possibly re-working the AMG M120 V-12, but I think it makes a little more sense to try an fit the AMG 63 V-8. It seems as if it might be a little less intrusive as far as the length is concerned.
I drove up to Mooresville and spoke to one of the Applications Engineers at MOTEC, about an ECU set up for the AMG 63. Pricey, but I am apparently hooked on the idea. So I thought I would go ahead and try to find a reasonably priced engine, and have it re-built.
My reasoning is that I would like to go ahead and sort through the headache of working out the details and getting everything done, before I get started on the SLC build. I would like to know that the engine and ecu system is ready to go when I start the build.
I am also finishing up my GTM build, and thought that I could go ahead and get past this hurdle.
So the ECU will be the MOTEC M800. It can handle all the systems that I will need to run. 100% configurable air & fuel maps, Ignition, dual MAF sensors, Fuel Injectors, Fuel Pump(s), Cam sensors, Crank sensors, LAMBA sensors, Oil Pressure, Water Temp, Cooling Fans, DbW Throttle motors, Thermal sensor for Transaxle cooler pump and fan, Traction Control, and probably a hand full of other items that we talked about...
The system is also able to read the wheel speed sensors for Vehicle Speed Determination, traction control calibration, and ABS brakes.
If I am able to do it the way I want to, the engine will remain relatively stock in terms of power and torque, and it will drive the Graziano transaxle. Solid power with reliability would be the goal.
I know that the LS3 or 7 would be MUCH smarter choices; but I can't seem to walk away from this AMG desire, and stay away from it. So I figure that I'd better start trying to figure out how to actually make it happen.
I may also need to talk about having a set of headers custom built as well. I live about 45 miles from KOOKS in Statesville, NC. I love the exhaust on my GTM, and thought I would contact them and see what it would take for them to design and build a set of stainless headers for me. (I am considering using the exhaust manifolds, but I'm not 100% sold on that yet).
If anyone could help me with dimensions, (Length, Width, Height, etc.), that would really help.
As far as I can think of right now, the depth of the oil pan may be the only potential show stopper. I wonder if there is a replacement pan that could be used in conjunction with a dry-sump oil system?
One step at a time...
I know that Fran and his crew can work some magic as far as the chassis is concerned, but I am interested in knowing how low the oil pan will sit on one of these engines?
Or is there a source for a replacement pan that would be a little more shallow?
I have been thinking of possibly re-working the AMG M120 V-12, but I think it makes a little more sense to try an fit the AMG 63 V-8. It seems as if it might be a little less intrusive as far as the length is concerned.
I drove up to Mooresville and spoke to one of the Applications Engineers at MOTEC, about an ECU set up for the AMG 63. Pricey, but I am apparently hooked on the idea. So I thought I would go ahead and try to find a reasonably priced engine, and have it re-built.
My reasoning is that I would like to go ahead and sort through the headache of working out the details and getting everything done, before I get started on the SLC build. I would like to know that the engine and ecu system is ready to go when I start the build.
I am also finishing up my GTM build, and thought that I could go ahead and get past this hurdle.
So the ECU will be the MOTEC M800. It can handle all the systems that I will need to run. 100% configurable air & fuel maps, Ignition, dual MAF sensors, Fuel Injectors, Fuel Pump(s), Cam sensors, Crank sensors, LAMBA sensors, Oil Pressure, Water Temp, Cooling Fans, DbW Throttle motors, Thermal sensor for Transaxle cooler pump and fan, Traction Control, and probably a hand full of other items that we talked about...
The system is also able to read the wheel speed sensors for Vehicle Speed Determination, traction control calibration, and ABS brakes.
If I am able to do it the way I want to, the engine will remain relatively stock in terms of power and torque, and it will drive the Graziano transaxle. Solid power with reliability would be the goal.
I know that the LS3 or 7 would be MUCH smarter choices; but I can't seem to walk away from this AMG desire, and stay away from it. So I figure that I'd better start trying to figure out how to actually make it happen.
I may also need to talk about having a set of headers custom built as well. I live about 45 miles from KOOKS in Statesville, NC. I love the exhaust on my GTM, and thought I would contact them and see what it would take for them to design and build a set of stainless headers for me. (I am considering using the exhaust manifolds, but I'm not 100% sold on that yet).
If anyone could help me with dimensions, (Length, Width, Height, etc.), that would really help.
As far as I can think of right now, the depth of the oil pan may be the only potential show stopper. I wonder if there is a replacement pan that could be used in conjunction with a dry-sump oil system?
One step at a time...
Hey Mike -
Please pursue the M120! It's a far fetched dream of mine as well and it would be wonderful if you found a rainbow and pot of gold, and by some stroke of luck this off-the-beaten-path drivetrain isn't so insanely expense after all. I mean....it's ok to dream, right??
GODSPEED!
Please pursue the M120! It's a far fetched dream of mine as well and it would be wonderful if you found a rainbow and pot of gold, and by some stroke of luck this off-the-beaten-path drivetrain isn't so insanely expense after all. I mean....it's ok to dream, right??
GODSPEED!
People have made custom sheet-metal pans for lots of other engines. I'd be surprised if someone in your area couldn't take a stock pan and make a custom one to your specs- after all, you are living in the center of NASCAR country!
If you are determined to use such an engine, why not try to get a junker to measure and mock up (I am assuming here that the regular Mercedes engines share the same physical size as the AMG version, and that they are relatively plentiful in junkyards like the BMW 12s are)? It could be used to do the chassis changes, if any are needed, and as a base for headers. Meanwhile, your "good" engine could be being rebuilt, and safely away from the fab process until you are ready to install it.
The Stock Oilpan of the M120 is sitting below Tarmac in the SL-C - you have to dry-sump it . The Length is approx 100mm too long for the SL-C - i had to cut out the Chassis for it and build Custom Frame-Rails . After that the Driveshafts still have a few Degrees to the Back , the Tank needs to be reworked .
The Width is ok , the Height is not checked already - maybe the Airbox needs a Buckle in the Rear Hood - depending on the Setup (ITBs or Standard Manifold)
The Width is ok , the Height is not checked already - maybe the Airbox needs a Buckle in the Rear Hood - depending on the Setup (ITBs or Standard Manifold)
Howard Jones
Supporter
I'm doing my own car's wiring. I have been trained in electrical engineering and work on transit trains for a living (40 years now). So I will add my thoughts on electrical harness construction.
This all is prefaced with IMHO!
I wouldn't even consider doing a complete car harness without the car in hand. Selection of all the parts is a very big deal and would require some previous experience with a successful engine management model. You can't just buy a lot of parts that some yahoo says will work on a hot rod forum and expect it all to work like a plug and play external hard drive plugged into your laptop.
The whole deal would take many weeks, maybe months. I'm being honest here.
So how to start. Everything needs to be in it's final location. Engine install complete with exhaust done and mounted. Gearbox and entire power train installed. All electrical components in place. Lights installed all cabin devices in place. Dash DONE and installed. EVERYTHING installed and complete.
Then start planning out the harness(s). I would make three. Engine management, lights, and dash system. Maybe even divide the interior of the car into two harnesses depending on how much stuff is included like audio systems and other electronics like cameras.
Now collect all the documentation in one place and start the drawings in block form. Then break it down to smaller drawings and start adding connector pin outs and wiring point to point lists. Finally start selecting connectors based on drawing requirements.
Next select vendors for wire, connectors, connector tools, harness sheathing, and all the stuff you need to do a system like this.
Plan wire runs on the car. Position of connectors etc. And finally start cutting wire and installing connectors based on drawing.
Even at a low cost of 50 bucks an hour I could easily spend a couple of hundred hours on a complete car. I'm being kind and we're at 10 grand already. I wouldn't do it for that myself. Not worth my time.
THEN you have to make it all work. Here's where all you're hard work doing the documentation really shines. Be prepaird for revisons.
20 grand isn't a big number really if you want a turn key install. If you want to learn how your car works then you can do it yourself and only spend money on pieces but it will take a lot longer.
Go for it!!!!
This all is prefaced with IMHO!
I wouldn't even consider doing a complete car harness without the car in hand. Selection of all the parts is a very big deal and would require some previous experience with a successful engine management model. You can't just buy a lot of parts that some yahoo says will work on a hot rod forum and expect it all to work like a plug and play external hard drive plugged into your laptop.
The whole deal would take many weeks, maybe months. I'm being honest here.
So how to start. Everything needs to be in it's final location. Engine install complete with exhaust done and mounted. Gearbox and entire power train installed. All electrical components in place. Lights installed all cabin devices in place. Dash DONE and installed. EVERYTHING installed and complete.
Then start planning out the harness(s). I would make three. Engine management, lights, and dash system. Maybe even divide the interior of the car into two harnesses depending on how much stuff is included like audio systems and other electronics like cameras.
Now collect all the documentation in one place and start the drawings in block form. Then break it down to smaller drawings and start adding connector pin outs and wiring point to point lists. Finally start selecting connectors based on drawing requirements.
Next select vendors for wire, connectors, connector tools, harness sheathing, and all the stuff you need to do a system like this.
Plan wire runs on the car. Position of connectors etc. And finally start cutting wire and installing connectors based on drawing.
Even at a low cost of 50 bucks an hour I could easily spend a couple of hundred hours on a complete car. I'm being kind and we're at 10 grand already. I wouldn't do it for that myself. Not worth my time.
THEN you have to make it all work. Here's where all you're hard work doing the documentation really shines. Be prepaird for revisons.
20 grand isn't a big number really if you want a turn key install. If you want to learn how your car works then you can do it yourself and only spend money on pieces but it will take a lot longer.
Go for it!!!!
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Thanks Howard. I appreciate the heads up! You're 100% right about the creation of the wiring harness.
I did a little research and found out that the AMG SLS uses a dry-sump system, on a 6.3 V8 engine. So the pan and dry-sump system is available for that engine. But it will be a bit pricey. I can see buying a junk engine to use for mock-up, but I don't think I want to spend the money for two D/S systems.
So I will probably follow your suggestion and go through the fab work and test fit of the engine, D/S, exhaust and transaxle (with axles installed) prior to doing any harness work for the engine bay.
The rest of the car will be wired with the ISIS system.
I was trying to find a way to spread the cost involved across actual time, as opposed to compressed project time. Otherwise the project will likely extend out for a couple of months. But if that is what needs to be, then may be it should.
Right now, I simply have to work through everything form start to finish in my head, and on paper in order to get a feel for whether it will really work or not, before I spend large amounts of money.
Thanks,
Mike
I did a little research and found out that the AMG SLS uses a dry-sump system, on a 6.3 V8 engine. So the pan and dry-sump system is available for that engine. But it will be a bit pricey. I can see buying a junk engine to use for mock-up, but I don't think I want to spend the money for two D/S systems.
So I will probably follow your suggestion and go through the fab work and test fit of the engine, D/S, exhaust and transaxle (with axles installed) prior to doing any harness work for the engine bay.
The rest of the car will be wired with the ISIS system.
I was trying to find a way to spread the cost involved across actual time, as opposed to compressed project time. Otherwise the project will likely extend out for a couple of months. But if that is what needs to be, then may be it should.
Right now, I simply have to work through everything form start to finish in my head, and on paper in order to get a feel for whether it will really work or not, before I spend large amounts of money.
Thanks,
Mike
Howard Jones
Supporter
One last idea. If you have a donor car, or most of one, then you might be able to use the donor harness as a first prototype. MAYBE if will work or at least get you down the right road so that you can start making allowances for gearbox inputs and other necessary inputs that the ECU needs to work. At least you would have a working harness to start making modification on.
After you get the engine to run you could use the donor for a model and build out a nice custom piece.
After you get the engine to run you could use the donor for a model and build out a nice custom piece.
I built my own wiring harness for my Porsche GT3-powered car. I did use the ISIS, but in some ways regret it. The power drain sucks, but moreover the constant ~2V going down each wire will cause a different electrical system to interpret it as a binary "on" when you didn't actually enable that circuit on the ISIS. I also could not get the starter circuit to stop blowing the fuse and ended up just wiring in a separate circuit from the dash. Next time I would either try to find a good wiring kit with fuses or go full PDM.
For the engine management, Howard provides a very good plan. I didn't quite have everything in place when I designed my harness though. I used the following approach:
1) Design at least a master harness in Excel first. You don't need to assign wire colors. Just assign pins to each other. You can get away with just doing the master harness including ECU and stock engine connections and wiring the rest of the wires into grouped connectors.
2) Build a master harness which connects to the ECU, but no other component directly. It separates circuits into groups for which you then build sub harnesses.
3) I used the stock engine harness, though I did disable a few circuits to put in better sensors with known calibration curves, like oil pressure for example. Try to keep the engine harness if you can, even if you end up replacing the connectors in the end if you can't source the matching one for the master harness side.
4) Build the master harness with reasonable length connections to the individual sub harnesses and assign colors to the wires in the process.
5) Install master harness.
6) Build sub harnesses.
This allows you to take a more step-by-step approach instead of needing to have every single piece in place. You do need to spend a ton of time in Excel designing, but that then makes the build process simple. I used all Deutsch DTM connectors, which aren't the cheapest, but they just work really well and are super easy to install with the right crimper tool.
In case you're wondering my sub harnesses are:
- Dash: throttle pedal, warning lights, switches
- CAN: ended up going same route to dash, but this wire should in theory be physically wired different than others
- Engine chassis: separate from stock engine and for things like new oil sensor
- Engine intake: separate from stock engine for MAP instead of MAF, intake temp, etc
- Wheel speed (4-wheel for traction control)
- Expansion: anything that could be useful down the road. I did end up needing one connector off this.
For the engine management, Howard provides a very good plan. I didn't quite have everything in place when I designed my harness though. I used the following approach:
1) Design at least a master harness in Excel first. You don't need to assign wire colors. Just assign pins to each other. You can get away with just doing the master harness including ECU and stock engine connections and wiring the rest of the wires into grouped connectors.
2) Build a master harness which connects to the ECU, but no other component directly. It separates circuits into groups for which you then build sub harnesses.
3) I used the stock engine harness, though I did disable a few circuits to put in better sensors with known calibration curves, like oil pressure for example. Try to keep the engine harness if you can, even if you end up replacing the connectors in the end if you can't source the matching one for the master harness side.
4) Build the master harness with reasonable length connections to the individual sub harnesses and assign colors to the wires in the process.
5) Install master harness.
6) Build sub harnesses.
This allows you to take a more step-by-step approach instead of needing to have every single piece in place. You do need to spend a ton of time in Excel designing, but that then makes the build process simple. I used all Deutsch DTM connectors, which aren't the cheapest, but they just work really well and are super easy to install with the right crimper tool.
In case you're wondering my sub harnesses are:
- Dash: throttle pedal, warning lights, switches
- CAN: ended up going same route to dash, but this wire should in theory be physically wired different than others
- Engine chassis: separate from stock engine and for things like new oil sensor
- Engine intake: separate from stock engine for MAP instead of MAF, intake temp, etc
- Wheel speed (4-wheel for traction control)
- Expansion: anything that could be useful down the road. I did end up needing one connector off this.
(appropriately humble pride)I am truly proud to see that someone is finally choosing the best engine for an SLC.
For those of you who are dazzled by the false claims of the enthusiast press, let me give you the TRUTH, from a deeply-placed source in the manufacturer (a car magazine), who reported the engine's true awesomeness:
Engine dimensions:
Compression ratio 9.5:1
Intake valve diameter 2.020 in (51.3 mm)
Exhaust valve diameter 1.6755 in (42.56 mm)
Pushrod length 5.875 in (149.2 mm)
Deck height 9.424 in (239.4 mm)
Bore 3.910 in (99.3 mm)
Stroke 3.50 in (89 mm)
You can also CHOOSE between a ONE or a TWO-barrel carburetor.
This mighty mill produces------100 horsepower!
Yes, folks, it warms my heart to see all you technical people out there producing an exotic handmade car with an exotic power train. A true
AMC powered SLC!
(/end appropriate humble pride)
Sources: AMC Pacer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AMC straight-6 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For those of you who are dazzled by the false claims of the enthusiast press, let me give you the TRUTH, from a deeply-placed source in the manufacturer (a car magazine), who reported the engine's true awesomeness:
Engine dimensions:
Compression ratio 9.5:1
Intake valve diameter 2.020 in (51.3 mm)
Exhaust valve diameter 1.6755 in (42.56 mm)
Pushrod length 5.875 in (149.2 mm)
Deck height 9.424 in (239.4 mm)
Bore 3.910 in (99.3 mm)
Stroke 3.50 in (89 mm)
You can also CHOOSE between a ONE or a TWO-barrel carburetor.
This mighty mill produces------100 horsepower!
Yes, folks, it warms my heart to see all you technical people out there producing an exotic handmade car with an exotic power train. A true
AMC powered SLC!
(/end appropriate humble pride)
Sources: AMC Pacer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AMC straight-6 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
