B.O. Supports Mosque near ground zero.
- Thread starter Pete
- Start date
No worries they do say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, won't stop me though!!
Keith, here we go pal: -
A good post Graham which flags up the basic fears of most (non) Muslims but I would take slight issue with your statement above, as I feel Atheism in it's broadest sense means that you reject the idea of a Deity full stop, so that state hardly qualifies you to be objective (or form an opinion) about something you believe does not exist, or as Wiki would have it:
Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-0></SUP> In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-RoweRoutledge_1-0></SUP> Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
Therefore pray tell
laugh what then are your "own faith leanings?" Are they presumably based on sanctity of the individual, personal rights & freedoms etc etc?
Agreed in the firm sense of the word atheist, but it doesn't stop the ability to hypothesise. "Own faith leanings" was meant to say that I have no vested interest in ANY religion, and as such I can be more objective (hopefully) than a Muslim, Catholic or Jew (as some previous posts may show...). Religion, belief, faith and god are all different things, but that is for a WHOLE new thread
And yes, you are right in that I belive in the individual, self determination etc etc...
I'm not being critical or challenging - but having been brought up in a Church going family and having spent most of my life practising Agnosticism I am interested in peoples perception & interpretation of "faith" in whatever form, as I do believe we all need some kind of prop whatever tag you put on it, especially at this time.
A partial yes here... faith as a word is interesting in that I can say "I have faith that Arsenal will win the Premiership this year", but the word still holds a kind of Ju Ju that is related to a higher being in some way (IMHO). Its a toughie... I dont believe in any god, nor do I believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, and yet I still catch myself saying "Thank god for that" when the wife comes home and tells me that she nearly got smeared across the pavement, but didn't. (Note to self - must increase the life insurance on the missus ).
From this "faith" (whatever it might be) comes the strength to resist the threat of having the right to have "your" faith, denied you.
I recently attended the baptism of a good friends second child recently. He is an on and off Catholic with a healthy world view. the chap running the show was a thoroughly nice, decent priest who had served his parish for decades and his faith must have been tested so many many times. Yet he was still there, firm in his position and his faith.
Now cut to the image of the mighty pontiff getting off the plane in Edinburgh, a man who actively denies the use of condoms in Africa etc etc and we see faith as a double edged sword. I am pretty damn sure that most people of faith are good people, but when they rise up the food chain, "faith" is served by Politics, and let's face it, god takes a back seat. It then becomes a pissing contest to keep their own doctrine intact. We have the Pope and the various leaders of the muslim world playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours". You can have your church there if I can have mine here. That is self serving bollocks that has little to do with "fatih" and everything to do with politics and self preservation...
Faith to me, is faith in my family, friends and the state (such as it is...), I just don't like the word that much...
You can sense the lack of willpower and the bewilderment of the people at this time, trying to counter something which they do not comprehend, because they have largely LOST faith in a concept, an idea, a community, a deity, a country, a people, a political system etc etc and what you are left with is a host of insecurity on the one hand, and those that would seek to redress this lack of faith by force of arms alone on the other.
Yep. We are seeing this now in many countries, but not just through force of arms. We now have five Sharia courts in this country as well as Jewish courts that can rule on certain civil matters. These are the things that scare me most. Apathy ain't an excuse when fundamentalism comes knocking on the door. Unfortunately the media has a strong nose for "Racism", and anyone opposing these things are heavily branded immediately. You will note that I mention Jewish courts as well as Sharia courts. I want NO courts or arbitration centres here other than those governed by British law. I fear that the gun will play the smallest part in our downfall and that birth rates and indoctrination will be the biggie...
And, in my opinion, the reason for that is, that speaking for ourselves in the UK, we have had a quiet revolution over the past 60 years coming from an all dominating World Power to a largely hedonistic & peaceful State and a major vacuum in between... and as you know, nature abhors a vacuum...
100% with you here, but I kinda like our peaceful, slightly apathetic nature. In some ways it defines us positively and others negatively. I love that the french truckers or farmers can block all their roads because they perceive that they are being hard done by (apart from last year when I lost a day getting to Narbonne ). I wish that we were a tad more like that ourselves. We have become a largely secular state which again I think is a good thing. I can't remember which politician said it, and I may be paraphrasing here, but he came up with a chant that sums us up pretty well. Imagine you are at a rally of "Middle England" and you hear: -
Speaker: WHAT DO WE WANT?
Crowd: OCCASIONAL CHANGE
Speaker:WHEN DO WE WANT IT?
Crowd:ANYTIME REALLY
Cheers pal,
Graham.
A good post Graham which flags up the basic fears of most (non) Muslims but I would take slight issue with your statement above, as I feel Atheism in it's broadest sense means that you reject the idea of a Deity full stop, so that state hardly qualifies you to be objective (or form an opinion) about something you believe does not exist, or as Wiki would have it:
Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-0></SUP> In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-RoweRoutledge_1-0></SUP> Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
Therefore pray tell
laugh what then are your "own faith leanings?" Are they presumably based on sanctity of the individual, personal rights & freedoms etc etc?Agreed in the firm sense of the word atheist, but it doesn't stop the ability to hypothesise. "Own faith leanings" was meant to say that I have no vested interest in ANY religion, and as such I can be more objective (hopefully) than a Muslim, Catholic or Jew (as some previous posts may show...). Religion, belief, faith and god are all different things, but that is for a WHOLE new thread
And yes, you are right in that I belive in the individual, self determination etc etc...
I'm not being critical or challenging - but having been brought up in a Church going family and having spent most of my life practising Agnosticism I am interested in peoples perception & interpretation of "faith" in whatever form, as I do believe we all need some kind of prop whatever tag you put on it, especially at this time.
A partial yes here... faith as a word is interesting in that I can say "I have faith that Arsenal will win the Premiership this year", but the word still holds a kind of Ju Ju that is related to a higher being in some way (IMHO). Its a toughie... I dont believe in any god, nor do I believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, and yet I still catch myself saying "Thank god for that" when the wife comes home and tells me that she nearly got smeared across the pavement, but didn't. (Note to self - must increase the life insurance on the missus
).From this "faith" (whatever it might be) comes the strength to resist the threat of having the right to have "your" faith, denied you.
I recently attended the baptism of a good friends second child recently. He is an on and off Catholic with a healthy world view. the chap running the show was a thoroughly nice, decent priest who had served his parish for decades and his faith must have been tested so many many times. Yet he was still there, firm in his position and his faith.
Now cut to the image of the mighty pontiff getting off the plane in Edinburgh, a man who actively denies the use of condoms in Africa etc etc and we see faith as a double edged sword. I am pretty damn sure that most people of faith are good people, but when they rise up the food chain, "faith" is served by Politics, and let's face it, god takes a back seat. It then becomes a pissing contest to keep their own doctrine intact. We have the Pope and the various leaders of the muslim world playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours". You can have your church there if I can have mine here. That is self serving bollocks that has little to do with "fatih" and everything to do with politics and self preservation...
Faith to me, is faith in my family, friends and the state (such as it is...), I just don't like the word that much...
You can sense the lack of willpower and the bewilderment of the people at this time, trying to counter something which they do not comprehend, because they have largely LOST faith in a concept, an idea, a community, a deity, a country, a people, a political system etc etc and what you are left with is a host of insecurity on the one hand, and those that would seek to redress this lack of faith by force of arms alone on the other.
Yep. We are seeing this now in many countries, but not just through force of arms. We now have five Sharia courts in this country as well as Jewish courts that can rule on certain civil matters. These are the things that scare me most. Apathy ain't an excuse when fundamentalism comes knocking on the door. Unfortunately the media has a strong nose for "Racism", and anyone opposing these things are heavily branded immediately. You will note that I mention Jewish courts as well as Sharia courts. I want NO courts or arbitration centres here other than those governed by British law. I fear that the gun will play the smallest part in our downfall and that birth rates and indoctrination will be the biggie...
And, in my opinion, the reason for that is, that speaking for ourselves in the UK, we have had a quiet revolution over the past 60 years coming from an all dominating World Power to a largely hedonistic & peaceful State and a major vacuum in between... and as you know, nature abhors a vacuum...
100% with you here, but I kinda like our peaceful, slightly apathetic nature. In some ways it defines us positively and others negatively. I love that the french truckers or farmers can block all their roads because they perceive that they are being hard done by (apart from last year when I lost a day getting to Narbonne
). I wish that we were a tad more like that ourselves. We have become a largely secular state which again I think is a good thing. I can't remember which politician said it, and I may be paraphrasing here, but he came up with a chant that sums us up pretty well. Imagine you are at a rally of "Middle England" and you hear: -Speaker: WHAT DO WE WANT?
Crowd: OCCASIONAL CHANGE
Speaker:WHEN DO WE WANT IT?
Crowd:ANYTIME REALLY
Cheers pal,
Graham.
Nice one Graham very good post...
Now all you "extremists" (apart from Nick who's had to shoot himself) see how we did that? Pure discussion, debate and a respectful exchange of views on a difficult subject and not one, even one personal jibe.
Way to go...
(By the way, I won't be on for a while, as I'm getting my guns & supplies together and heading for my nuclear bunker in the hills - when I emerge amongst the smoking ruins, I'll be top dog yet, just you wait and see)
And, if anyone, and I mean anyone who comes near me with so much as a washing up cloth on their head, they're going to get toasted!
:bandana: :rifle:
Now all you "extremists" (apart from Nick who's had to shoot himself) see how we did that? Pure discussion, debate and a respectful exchange of views on a difficult subject and not one, even one personal jibe.
Way to go...
(By the way, I won't be on for a while, as I'm getting my guns & supplies together and heading for my nuclear bunker in the hills - when I emerge amongst the smoking ruins, I'll be top dog yet, just you wait and see)
And, if anyone, and I mean anyone who comes near me with so much as a washing up cloth on their head, they're going to get toasted!
:bandana: :rifle:
Graham / Gravy; here in the states we have SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. I feel that that is one of the biggest disconnects that you cousins from across the pond have. That was one of the MAJOR reasons that we founded the good old U.S.A. That Shiite doesn't fly over here. This is the reason that I say that some of you really should broaden your views as you are looking at things as if it were going on in your country. While we are very similar we are vastly different (we have more individual freedoms although Barrack Hussein Obama is trying his darnedest to crush that!!!!)
Now I would like to address the Nazi (yes he was in the HITLER YOUTH MOVEMENT New Pope had brief stint in the Hitler Youth Movement )I mean POPE post. The dirty little secret is that the Catholic church on one of the RICHEST LAND OWNERS WORLD WIDE. The Pope is not allowing ANYTHING to be built on property owned by the Church but has said O.K. to Rome because lets face it he really has NO SAY in the matter. He really couldn't do anything to stop it. While his approval may sell papers in reality it is B.S. When he allows a Mosque to be built on Daises owned property than his approval will become worth the attention given.
On a side not I was raised with exposure to both Catholicism and Judaism. I was baptized and received communion and than converted to Judaism when I was 13 so I think I have a little more experience with both religions than most. Now I have no problem with the Catholic church as a whole but THIS POPE I mean come on!!!!!!!!!!
Now I would like to address the Nazi (yes he was in the HITLER YOUTH MOVEMENT New Pope had brief stint in the Hitler Youth Movement )I mean POPE post. The dirty little secret is that the Catholic church on one of the RICHEST LAND OWNERS WORLD WIDE. The Pope is not allowing ANYTHING to be built on property owned by the Church but has said O.K. to Rome because lets face it he really has NO SAY in the matter. He really couldn't do anything to stop it. While his approval may sell papers in reality it is B.S. When he allows a Mosque to be built on Daises owned property than his approval will become worth the attention given.
On a side not I was raised with exposure to both Catholicism and Judaism. I was baptized and received communion and than converted to Judaism when I was 13 so I think I have a little more experience with both religions than most. Now I have no problem with the Catholic church as a whole but THIS POPE I mean come on!!!!!!!!!!
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Damian,
An interesting point of view.
I'll make you a small wager... let's see. I'll bet my unfinished GT40 against something you have (you see I'm pretty confident that I'll win this one) that during my lifetime (what I have left which I hope will see me through another 8 presidents if I'm lucky) that there will not be an American President who does not purport to be allied to a particular religion, and who follows that religion on a regular basis. You are One Nation under God after all. It would seem churlish that you would turn your back on him in all of your fundamental creations of laws etc...
We have seen Dubbya open the debate on creationism which the scientific community have refused to do (because creationism patently holds no science within it). We hear your politicians using phrases like "God fearing Americans" etc...
It is very easy to scratch the surface of Church and State separation and find that underneath it is not wholly the case. The US has now a population that counts a third of itself as born again christians with a zeal that in many areas borders on fundamentalism.
As Jesus (allegedly (cos I'm an athesit anyway)) once said "before you pull that big old splinter out of your chums eye, better pull that huge booger out of your own nose first". Well, it was something like that (I think)
Non PC humour aside, it IS important to realise that although we THINK there is separation, it is nowhere near total, and less than you or I would think.
Cheers,
Graham.
At about this time, I normally sing part of the Star Spangled Banner, this part:
O, thus be it ever when freemen shall stand,
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the Heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
Also US Congress 1957 - H.J. Resolution 396 which dealt with the (up until then), de factor motto of the US from:
E pluribus unum to:
You guessed it!
"IN GOD WE TRUST" (all others pay cash - sorry couldn't resist)
I know of conjoined twins that are more separate...
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E pluribus unum
Which as we all know (surely) means "Out of many, One"... I think they should have fired their 1957 translator
E pluribus unum
Which as we all know (surely) means "Out of many, One"... I think they should have fired their 1957 translator
Are you absolutely sure that's what it means Graham?
I always thought it translated into "There's always One"
Hmmm Obviously I don't know my history and to think of all that money wasted learning Latin. ... :uneasy:
Dude,
If I remember my latin (7 years of it, then mostly completely forgotten) we get:
E = out
Pluribus = many (hence our term plural meanng many or more than one)
Unum = One
Plus I googled it just to be sure
Oh, shit... the penny's just dropped... I am a doofus. I will go into the corner with the dunces cap on.
You are a very funny man Hardy
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Damian
Separation of church and state are you sure I understood you had something called the bible belt.
On the subject of "broadening your views and looking at things as if they were going on in your country" please can you watch all of this and try to imagine if they were your children, and it was happening in your country.
I know it's long, and I know it's one side of the story, but the story is told by children, whose innocence is being destroyed piece by piece and we will act indignant and express surprise if any of them grow up to be terrorists
"Give me the child until he is seven and I’ll give you the man”. St. Francis Xavier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd6SklTzn1A
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Nick, What was the gist of the video, seems like censorship has arrived.
"This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds."
I had heard another Catholic version that said "give me a child until the age of eight, and he will never depart from that way" roughly what I remember.
If you mold a child to be a terrorist, he will be one. Which makes you wonder what kind of demented assholes these people are. But then they are probably running out of grownups that want to be blown up.
Al,
Try this link and click on the arrow to watch the video, and remember no "demented arseholes" have had to mould these children at this point in their lives. They are learning from their own observations, and horrific experiences of life.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-56/episode-1
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Still won't let me play it.
Al,
Not sure why you can't watch it as it's channel 4's on site so that's a bit suspicious.
Gist of the video
In December 2008, the Israeli Defence Force unleashed a campaign to destroy the ability of Hamas to launch rockets and mortars into Israel. Around 300 children were among the 1,300 Palestinians that were killed.
After the ceasefire, BAFTA-winning filmmaker Jezza Neumann arrived in Gaza to follow the lives of three children over a year.
Surrounded by the remnants of the demolished Gaza Strip and increasingly isolated by the
blockade that prevents anyone from rebuilding their homes and their lives, Children of Gaza is a shocking, touching and uniquely intimate reflection on extraordinary courage in the face of great adversity
The most poignant parts to me, are when it shows children playing, their games involve holding toy guns to their friends heads and pulling the trigger.
Mock beatings and torture, of their friends, and a young boy explaining how he had seen his farther with his hands up standing on his front door step shot dead, with his four year old brother also shot and killed.
He was then taken by the Israeli soldiers placed in a house with other woman and children for 3 days without food or water.
The house was then raised to the ground by rockets and he was trapped beneath the rubble for a day before being rescued and taken to hospital.
More background information from the UN news centre.
16 September 2010 – Despite Israel's promise to ease the closure of the Gaza Strip, 40,000 Palestinian children eligible to enrol in United Nations schools this year had to be turned away this week because building materials for school construction have not been approved to enter the area since 2007.
While for the first time in three years Israel has allowed the import of school supplies for Government schools in Gaza, the almost absolute ban on the import of construction materials has left students with lots of pens and notebooks but without classrooms, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) reported.
“UNRWA needs 100 new schools to meet the enrolment demands of the children of Gaza,” the agency said in a news release. “Students being turned away from UNRWA schools is only one consequence of the classroom shortage in the Gaza Strip.
“To deal with the shortage of classroom space, students in most of Gaza's schools study in two shifts, in classrooms with up to 50 students, and sometimes oversized metal containers are used as classrooms, with three children seated at desks designed for two.”
Construction of a standard school requires an estimated 220 truckloads of building materials, or 22,000 truckloads for 100 schools. The only crossing Israel allows to open, Kerem Shalom, can accommodate just 250 truckloads per day, mostly for food and basic humanitarian supplies.
Despite promises, Israel has yet to approve a single truckload of construction materials for UNRWA's schools and has agreed to “negotiate” coordinating materials for just eight out of the 100 needed schools. Since the easing of the closure, Israel has allowed just 240 truckloads of construction materials monthly for all uses, compared with more than 5,000 trucks monthly before the closure (4 per cent of pre-closure levels).
“The right to education is a basic right of children everywhere,” UNRWA’s Gaza Director John Ging said. “For the children of Gaza, realization of that right depends on the continued construction of schools, because all of the temporary measures and substitutes have already been exhausted.”
Students at UNRWA schools study a specialized curriculum in human rights and critical thinking, not available in government schools. Furthermore, according to UNRWA records, students in its schools score 20 per cent higher than government school students on international aptitude tests.
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and other top UN officials have repeatedly called for ending the blockade, which Israel imposed on Gaza for what it called security reasons after Hamas, which does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, ousted the Fatah movement in the Strip in 2007.
In June, Israel eased the blockade to allow more civilian goods to enter the territory
16 September 2010 – Despite Israel's promise to ease the closure of the Gaza Strip, 40,000 Palestinian children eligible to enrol in United Nations schools this year had to be turned away this week because building materials for school construction have not been approved to enter the area since 2007.
While for the first time in three years Israel has allowed the import of school supplies for Government schools in Gaza, the almost absolute ban on the import of construction materials has left students with lots of pens and notebooks but without classrooms, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) reported.
“UNRWA needs 100 new schools to meet the enrolment demands of the children of Gaza,” the agency said in a news release. “Students being turned away from UNRWA schools is only one consequence of the classroom shortage in the Gaza Strip.
“To deal with the shortage of classroom space, students in most of Gaza's schools study in two shifts, in classrooms with up to 50 students, and sometimes oversized metal containers are used as classrooms, with three children seated at desks designed for two.”
Construction of a standard school requires an estimated 220 truckloads of building materials, or 22,000 truckloads for 100 schools. The only crossing Israel allows to open, Kerem Shalom, can accommodate just 250 truckloads per day, mostly for food and basic humanitarian supplies.
Despite promises, Israel has yet to approve a single truckload of construction materials for UNRWA's schools and has agreed to “negotiate” coordinating materials for just eight out of the 100 needed schools. Since the easing of the closure, Israel has allowed just 240 truckloads of construction materials monthly for all uses, compared with more than 5,000 trucks monthly before the closure (4 per cent of pre-closure levels).
“The right to education is a basic right of children everywhere,” UNRWA’s Gaza Director John Ging said. “For the children of Gaza, realization of that right depends on the continued construction of schools, because all of the temporary measures and substitutes have already been exhausted.”
Students at UNRWA schools study a specialized curriculum in human rights and critical thinking, not available in government schools. Furthermore, according to UNRWA records, students in its schools score 20 per cent higher than government school students on international aptitude tests.
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and other top UN officials have repeatedly called for ending the blockade, which Israel imposed on Gaza for what it called security reasons after Hamas, which does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, ousted the Fatah movement in the Strip in 2007.
In June, Israel eased the blockade to allow more civilian goods to enter the territory
Nice post Nick.
It does concern me that there is a huge global disconnect between what goes on in the Israel / Palestinian region and how it is reported throughout the world (or more specifically in the USA).
I don't want to open a huge can of worms here, but having spent some time in the U.S. (but not enough to have empirical proof, just a gut feeling) I found that the news channels had a bias towards a particular leaning. We do have the same problem here, but not nearly as much (I don't think).
In terms of world press, the Palestinians get a pretty rough deal, whereas Israel seems to be coated in Teflon, the shit just don't stick...
I'm not saying that many people haven't died at the hands of Palestinian hands, just that the scales are pretty even when the bodies are stacked on both sides...
It does concern me that there is a huge global disconnect between what goes on in the Israel / Palestinian region and how it is reported throughout the world (or more specifically in the USA).
I don't want to open a huge can of worms here, but having spent some time in the U.S. (but not enough to have empirical proof, just a gut feeling) I found that the news channels had a bias towards a particular leaning. We do have the same problem here, but not nearly as much (I don't think).
In terms of world press, the Palestinians get a pretty rough deal, whereas Israel seems to be coated in Teflon, the shit just don't stick...
I'm not saying that many people haven't died at the hands of Palestinian hands, just that the scales are pretty even when the bodies are stacked on both sides...
