Fontana information
- Thread starter gaj
- Start date
Fairly sure that the Fontana blocks are set up for Cleveland camshaft components ( the larger crank to cam centerline distance gave more room for stroker crank clearance ).
To check for sure measure the front cam bearing dia or if not fitted yet the front cam bearing block bore.
Cleveland is.. 2.125" cam dia & 2.250" for the bore in the block prior to fitting cam bearing. ( All Windsors are... 2.080" & 2.205" at those two points- #s 2.3.4.5 cam bearings are the same for both motors.. Clevo or Windsor ).
Incidently you can also use 429/460 distributors in cleveland applications if your hunting for parts.
Some cam companys are now offering roller bearing kits for either type, but these require line bore of cam tunnels in order to fit....not worth the hassle IMHO, but dont let that stop you.
Kelly
Lifetime Supporter
I own three 9.5" Deck Fontana Clevors at the moment. They are a nice piece and a proven light platform for building serious power. An acaquaintance of mine (Dan Jones) compiled this list of specs some time ago. Distributor is same for either deck height. All the below applies to Fontana Clevors. Joe sold the tooling to Shelby last year. Prior to the sale it was Windsorized. Joe told me the tooling was convertable to produce either Cleveor or Windsor versions. I doubt Shelby will offer Clevors so I suspect they are extinct. Clevors will have "HYPO" cast into front or #1 cylinder. Joe cast 50 or so Windsor versions before he retired last year and sold the tooling. Winsdor versions do not have "HYPO" present.
- Available in 9.2" (Cleveland) or 9.5" (Windsor) deck heights.
- Siamesed bore (dry wall, ductile iron top hat cylinder liners, interlock
with flats on sides between bores). Absolute maximum bore is 4.155",
though 4.125" is probably more likely.
- For large diameter bores, recommended headgaskets are Fel-Pro 1022
(left hand) and 1023 (right hand). These gaskets have 4.160" bores,
are notched (one has 2 notches, the other 3 notches) and come with
instructions. Use Fel-Pro 1021 for bores up to 4.1".
- Clearanced for standard full size starter (I'm using a mini starter)
- Compatible with solid or hydraulic flat tappet lifters and solid roller
lifters but does not have the tall bosses for OEM hydraulic roller
lifters (could use the retro-fit reduced base circle stuff)
- 4 bolt main caps on all 5 mains, splayed on 2, 3, and 4.
- Windsor rear intake manifold seal rail shape (requires SVO or Edelbrock
dual end seal style intake). IR EFI intakes are available.
- Windsor oil system layout
- 2.750" main diameter (for Cleveland diameter crank)
- 351 Cleveland main bearings
- 351 Cleveland oil pan and gasket
- 351 Cleveland oil pump and pick up
- 351 Cleveland cam (13726548 firing order)
- 351 Cleveland cam bearings
- 351 Windsor distributor with Cleveland gear
- 351 Windsor timing chain
- 351 Windsor timing cover gasket
- 351 Windsor water pump ('70-up)
- 351 Windsor end seals (intake end rails)
- Machined to accept M-6701-A351 two-piece rear main seal.
- Pressure port drilled at back of block just above bellhousing flange
(lowest pressure point)
- Fontana recommends using M-6799-A302 oil restrictor kit, even though
Windsor-based oil system (probably just for racing).
- Small block Ford lifters (same for Cleveland or Windsor)
- Small block Ford motor mounts (same for Cleveland or Windsor)
- Fontana specific front cover (included), optional sprint car front cover.
- Custom length pushrods
- Screw-in, O-ringed, Allen head core plugs
- Studs/bolts for block and head combo (available from ARP or Fontana). These are unique to Fontana, are longer and are anchored in the block deeper than other aftermarket blocks.
- Can be plugged at oil filter or oil pump base for dry sump (remove
for wet sump).
- Has wet sump provision but can be configured for dry sump (need to
remove one plug).
- Has pad for internal oil pump (not just external wet sump).
- Ford Motorsport Cleveland-style canted valve aluminum high port cylinder
heads (A3/B351/C302/Yates) require water passages be plugged like a
Windsor block (per SVO cylinder head instruction sheet).
- Windsor cooling system (Windsor thermostat in manifold or remote
thermostat, not Cleveland in-block thermostat).
- Drilled for hydraulic of solid lifters. Can use hydraulic flat, solid
flat, or solid roller. Lifter bosses not tall enough for OEM hydraulic
roller (could use reduced base circle retro-fits).
- Lifter bore angles are non-stock
- Bare block weight = 116 lbs
- Per Super Ford magazine article on Pantera engine, assembled engine weight
is 404 lbs (Fontana block, high port heads, Ford Motorsport intake).
- Gasket deck is 0.900" thick and head stud holes are 2.5" deep (9.5 deck?)
- All core and oil galley holes are threaded for pipe plugs
- Each cylinder is fitted with a 4.270" O.D. dry wall iron sleeve providing
for a maximum bore of 4.155".
- Numbers one and five main caps reatined by two 0.500" studs and two
0.375" studs. The three center caps are held in place with two 0.500"
hardened studs and two splayed 0.375" Allen head cap screws.
- 356-T6 aluminum
- Distance between camshaft and crank centerline is 4.07", same as a 351W.
- Custom front cover is needed because Fontana uses a Cleveland oil pan.
- Coolant flow path is same as a 351W (no return passages in upper front
corners of block like a Cleveland).
Torque specs:
Head studs 115 ft-lbs
Main Studs 1/2" diameter 100 ft-lbs
Main Studs 3/8" diameter 35 ft-lbs
Main Studs 7/16" diameter 55 ft-lbs
Run head studs into block with 10 ft-lbs maximum. Apply light coat
of silicone RTV on N.C. thread of head stud. Re-torque head studs
after initial running. Engine should be at room temperature for
re-torquing.
Instructions to Restrict Oil to Lifter Galleys on Fontana Clevor block
(see illustration of rear of block):
1. Tap 7/16"-14 through rear lifter galley openings. Stop before threads
reach lifter bore or when nose of tap appears.
2. Clean block and install set screws, 5/16" long, 0.073" hole, and use
Loctite.
Basic Instructions for Cleavor Block (already performed on my block):
1. Deburr and polish interior surfaces of block
2. Bore sleeves to size
3. Hone to final size
automatic hone - use Sunnen JHU625
hand operated - use Sunnen AN501
finish should be 14 to 23 RMS
4. Match up water coolant passage holes in block to holes in head gasket
by hand grinding block.
5. Install torque plate to seat sleeves
6. Deck block.
General Notes:
Joe Fontana recommends the main bearing clearances be 0.0015" to 0.0020"
cold (will grow a 1/2 thousandths hot).
Roush pins the cam bearings from the top on his race motors so the cam
bearings do not walk fore-and-aft (material is relatively thin there so
be careful). Roush also helicoils the mains.
Aluminum expands more than iron. The aluminum block and heads can expand
by more than 20 thousandths when hot. Note that this is more than the
lash on a "tight lash" solid lifter cam (required lash of 16 thou is less
than the expansion). You need to set the lash hot.
Hope this helps,
Best,
Kelly Coffield
Last edited:
This list is familiar and most valuable!
I have now found following informatinon;
The Windsor 351 and Cleveland 351 have almost the same distributor. The Windsor is a little taller and the the gear is different. So I would go for a Cleveland distributor and in my Fontana block it fits right in.
Skog
I have now found following informatinon;
The Windsor 351 and Cleveland 351 have almost the same distributor. The Windsor is a little taller and the the gear is different. So I would go for a Cleveland distributor and in my Fontana block it fits right in.
Skog
Kelly
Lifetime Supporter
Glad that was ueful. FWIW, the housing features that actually interface with the block on either 351c/429/460 or 351w distributor are the same. The gear and position on the shaft differ between the two. The installed height, diameter of cap, and external features vary depending upon make. Be advised, there can be subtle differences in shaft diameter that affect fit of the gear as well as the pilot bearing clearance on the end of the distributor shaft. You'll need to measure to be sure. Here's a picture of a 351c Mallory and an MSD "351w" Cam Sync. -Interface dimensions are identical accept for gear.
Best,
Kelly
Attachments
Hi Skog
Kelly has pretty much nailed it . I run a 429 dist in my Fontana, mainly because I found a cut down one that will fit under my injection.
The only thing I can add is if you use 351C check the pilot or spigot under the gear early 351C is .030" smaller than the latter one. Fontana block has the larger hole. Can be a trap
Woody
Kelly has pretty much nailed it . I run a 429 dist in my Fontana, mainly because I found a cut down one that will fit under my injection.
The only thing I can add is if you use 351C check the pilot or spigot under the gear early 351C is .030" smaller than the latter one. Fontana block has the larger hole. Can be a trap
Woody
Skog, do you mean the washer that prevents the hexagonal oil pump drive shaft from falling out when the motor is inverted on the engine stand, when fitted that washer should be at the distributor end under the spigot support lug cast in the block.
The Distributors with the O.030" smaller spigot dia were an ' Australian Only '
mod & only apply to later production Aussie 351c blocks- while some SVO blocks were sent from the USA to OZ for machining I have not encountered one that had the 'small' spigot dia. However it is a trap & can create early gear wear & split the spigot @ the hex drive in wet sump applications.
One item that got me thinking in the notes above is that the lifter bores are machined at 'non-standard angles'... does this mean that the cam must be made to suit the Fontana lifter bore angle rather than the std Ford angle... IE if a std cam is used & degreed in to suit #1 cyl that the valve timing on the other 5678 cyls will be early/later according to the lifter bore angle change?
Jac Mac
You are right , I got the years back to front. But I didn't know that the smaller one was Aussie only. Thanks. Good spotting on the lifter bore angles too. I know Fontana 4 cyl blocks for midgets are straight up and down on the intake and -4* ( * as degree ) on exhaust but I always thought the Hypo blocks were 83* as per standard that is 3.5* a side. Is that correct for a Windsor? With Clevlands we Sleeved the lifter bores to restrict oil to the lifters for the sake of the crank and they were bored at 83* not 100% if the Windsor is. Small block Chev is 82* That I remember.
However I imagine that if it was to be different you would notice the cam spec's would not suit the cam card when you came to degree in the cam!
Now that you got me thinking, I know a colleuge in the city that spent a zillion dollars on a fancy CNC blueprinting machine, he may have the Fontana program. I will check it out tomorrow.
Woody
You are right , I got the years back to front. But I didn't know that the smaller one was Aussie only. Thanks. Good spotting on the lifter bore angles too. I know Fontana 4 cyl blocks for midgets are straight up and down on the intake and -4* ( * as degree ) on exhaust but I always thought the Hypo blocks were 83* as per standard that is 3.5* a side. Is that correct for a Windsor? With Clevlands we Sleeved the lifter bores to restrict oil to the lifters for the sake of the crank and they were bored at 83* not 100% if the Windsor is. Small block Chev is 82* That I remember.
However I imagine that if it was to be different you would notice the cam spec's would not suit the cam card when you came to degree in the cam!
Now that you got me thinking, I know a colleuge in the city that spent a zillion dollars on a fancy CNC blueprinting machine, he may have the Fontana program. I will check it out tomorrow.
Woody
Kelly
Lifetime Supporter
When I spoke with Joe Fontana a few weeks ago I asked him if any of the Clevors had Windsor lifter bore angles and he said no, only the last 50 "Windsorized" blocks did. This thread did get me thinking though. Because the centerline of the cam tunnel is in the Windsor position on the Clevor (greater cam-crank spacing than Cleveland), given this, with Cleveland lifter bore angles, that would make the push rod angles slightly different on the Clevor and thus requiring custom length push rods (as noted above). So all this adds up to standard Clev cam and custom push rods which means no cam timing issues with the standard C cam in a Fontana Clevor.
Best,
Kelly
Kelly
Lifetime Supporter
Sure about that Woody? I posted this subject over on the 335 series forum. Might want to have a look. Tod Buttermore is tooling and manufacturing an aluminum C block and and Mark MCKeown (MME) is a notable builder and machines a lot of blocks. The both say a C is 90 degrees and Masrk says a W is 83. Heck, I'm in the process of learning something today because I thought they all were 90 degrees.
Have a looky here:
Ford 335 "Cleveland" Series Engine Forum: Lifter Bore Angles
Best,
Kelly
Have one of each in shop at moment so decided to measure/check info.
Cam / Crank Centerline distance on 351c is around 5.125", Windsor is around 4.875".
Lifter bore angle ( from left to right bank ) on 351c is 90°, Windsor less @ around the 83° mentioned above... ( * Woody- to get the ° mark, hold down the Alt key & type in 248, dont thank me, Ross Nichol taught us that a couple of years back
)
Seems odd to me that Fontana chose to use the Windsor cam location with the Cleveland cam & going to the trouble of making a dedicated front cover etc, when using the cleveland cam location would have allowed more room for a stroker crank and kept the lifters/pushrods further away from the water jackets in the valley. That info sheet would appear to have some errors in it.
Cam / Crank Centerline distance on 351c is around 5.125", Windsor is around 4.875".
Lifter bore angle ( from left to right bank ) on 351c is 90°, Windsor less @ around the 83° mentioned above... ( * Woody- to get the ° mark, hold down the Alt key & type in 248, dont thank me, Ross Nichol taught us that a couple of years back
)Seems odd to me that Fontana chose to use the Windsor cam location with the Cleveland cam & going to the trouble of making a dedicated front cover etc, when using the cleveland cam location would have allowed more room for a stroker crank and kept the lifters/pushrods further away from the water jackets in the valley. That info sheet would appear to have some errors in it.
Kelly
Lifetime Supporter
I had to go look. W is 4.804/4.807" crank to cam; see picture below. Will get precise C dimension and post later.
Yes
I agree. Very odd. Have a look at the page extracted from the Fontana Clevor brochure. So how can a W crank/cam centerline be less and afford more clearance? Granted, it's a brochure and hype but wouldn't seem to be an error that could be made by such a knowlegable source.
Kelly
Attachments
Kelly
Yes you are right I rang my college back and said:furious: and he said he had conflicting infomation. After much head scratching we found enough to convince us that it is in fact Clevland 90° windsor 83°
My apologies.
However Looking in the other site you mentioned it made referance to this site below
: [DeTomaso] Where Can One Buy A Fontana Alum Block?
Here is the same info sheet by Dan Jones on the fontana you listed but in a little more detail it states lifter bore angle of 41° for the Fontana.:shrug:
With confusion setting in I stopped at my local cam shop. they map cams with a CamPro machine that is driven by AudieTec software Which confirmed that the Windsor was 83° and the Clevland is 90°
I copied a page from this software into PDF , below
Sorry for the confusion, hope this has helped to clear it up.
Yes you are right I rang my college back and said:furious: and he said he had conflicting infomation. After much head scratching we found enough to convince us that it is in fact Clevland 90° windsor 83°
My apologies.
However Looking in the other site you mentioned it made referance to this site below
: [DeTomaso] Where Can One Buy A Fontana Alum Block?
Here is the same info sheet by Dan Jones on the fontana you listed but in a little more detail it states lifter bore angle of 41° for the Fontana.:shrug:
With confusion setting in I stopped at my local cam shop. they map cams with a CamPro machine that is driven by AudieTec software Which confirmed that the Windsor was 83° and the Clevland is 90°
I copied a page from this software into PDF , below
Sorry for the confusion, hope this has helped to clear it up.
The 41° mentioned should be 41.5° or more correctly 41° 30' which is half of the 83° total windsor angle from bank to bank. ( The figure at the RH of the chart you posted Woody.) But hey, it would be quite clever to leave it at 41° when you think about it, effectively advance one bank 1° & retard the other 1° ( 0.5° degree there = 1° in 4 stroke cycle) or variations on that theme to spread the torque curve a bit
Good point Jac Mac. While playing with the CamPro program, to dial the cam straight up, The program automaticly minused 3.5° from the left bank and added 3.5° to the right ( for a 289W ) to compensate for measuring the cam on a stand insted of in the engine. Things I've seen hundreds of times but never stopped to ask why.
I measured my Fontana block and the centre to centre distance from cam to crank is 4.8025. slightly under but it has had an align hone. Which ties in with Kellys chart.
I measured my Fontana block and the centre to centre distance from cam to crank is 4.8025. slightly under but it has had an align hone. Which ties in with Kellys chart.
