Ford 351 Blocks

Hi all,

I have a question regarding *cough* proper engines in a GT-40. I'm a bit more familiar with euro engines rather than American iron. Anyway I gather that the 351-W engine is the Ford small block and not a 351 Cleveland. What is a Ford 408? Is it an bored out Small or Large Block? Does a small block have a place in a GT-40 replica or would it be a total heracy to do so? Just asking before I sell my 85 E-150 van thats all rusty with a strong engine. What a construction web page..... Rusty old van to GT-40;-) Ah the sweet dreams! Yep the van is Ford blue so would it be so bad?

Thx Karl

 

[Steve Toner]

I wrote up something about the various engine sizes that were used in GT40s, but the link to that articles page seems to have gone away. I'll try to dig it up this evening.

Short answer for now (from memory): the 289, 302 are small blocks and were used in original GT40s. There was a 351 block that was used, but apparently a special casting for Holman Moody and not exactly the same as a 351W. No original GT40s had 351C engines, but at least one replica has been built with one. The most popular engine these days seems to be the 347 ci stroked 302.

 

[Steve Toner]

Found the page

 

Let's look at what you can build today.

There are three types of small block ford that you can build today.

There is the windsor, based on the origional small block with various deck heights and main journal diameters.

There is the Cleveland which is entirely different from the windsors and had a 9.2" deck height and 2.75" main journals. It's a good engine, but not as durable, cheap or easy to build as a windsor.

Then there is the Clevor. This is a hybrid using Cleveland style heads on a windsor style block. This is how they made the boss 302, and how they are making nascar engines.

Untill very recently, the formula for a nascar engine was a 9.2" deck block with 302 size main journals and Yates heads which are racing versions of Cleveland heads made from aluminum and midified to work on a windsor style block. They just recently switched to a 9" deck height.

So you can choose 8.2", 8.7", 9", 9.2" or 9.5" deck heights. 8.2" and 9.5" deck heights are the most common because they corespond to 302 and 351 windsor. 9.2 comes in third because of all of the nascar parts available. I'm not sure what 8.7" is for, but they are out there, 9" would be hard to find because it's so new.

Just make sure that your intake manifold matches your block and cylinder heads. For example a 302 intake won't fit a 8.7" deck height block, and it won't line up with cleveland heads.

Lastly, a 408 can be either a Cleveland, Windsor or Clevor. It's a 4" stroke crank in a 4.030" bore block. You can build that with a 9.2 or 9.5" deck height block.

 

[Russ Noble]

OK. I am at the planning stage of building a GT40 mainly for classic racing "down under". After a lot of research on this site and the Mustang sites over the last few months I have decided to go with a 351W and G50/50 with the Gulf type body. With regard to the 351W, what sort of revs are the standard crank and rods good for, in a circuit racing situation?I will internally balance the crank and it seems that should be good for 7000. What about the standard rods? In a drag racing situation, which seems to be the emphasis of most of the forums it seems that they are OK but will they stand up under the more sustained conditions of circuit racing? Due to severe fiscal restraints my initial motor will be limited to good pistons, cam and aftermarket heads and manifold. Does anyone have experience or know where reliable information on the capabilities of the rods can be found?

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi Russ -

Welcome aboard! - re the engine you are considering - It depends on what you mean by standard rods, but I do not think it would be a good idea (IMHO) reving past 6000-6500rpm on stock rods - especially if sustained for long periods. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Bill Bayard]

Russ,

Above 6200RPM, there are other issues to think about, like

a floating valvetrain. Hydraulic or solid? Roller? Etc.,etc.

You'll get some great tips here, but you should also seek

the advice of a well qualified, local engine builder, and

pick his brain. A local guy would be more familiar with the

costs associated with building a circuit racing engine in

Oz. There are plenty of Aussie members here(racers), who

could probably steer you in the right direction.


Bill

 

[Mike Dozier]

The 351W is a great choice.
There are now plenty of affordable aftermarket parts
to achieve any sane HP level you want.
You have to define your goals and your budget first.
Speed = $$$....my goals always seem to outstrip my budget.

MikeD

 

Hey all thanks for the reply's. I'm quite happy to see the engine is valid. Only real question is it worth pulling it from the van or letting someone drive it and just buy another engine. I was going to ask $700 for the van. Rebuilding engines doesn't bother me at all. A possible plan would be to rebuild the 351W to what made sense (any comments / build list) and then put a DIY EFI package on rather than carbs. I've also rebuilt a few 915 Porsche boxes, but what can a G50 handle? Is a ZF more realistic?

Looks like I need to spend some time going over this site;-)

Karl

 

[Russ Noble]

Thanks for your interest and comments guys. I have been researching on this site for months now but this is the first time I have posted.I feel Ron should be congratulated for creating the best automotive site that I have yet come across.

Karl,

From my research and IMHO for a road going 40 a rebuilt 351W with a few performance mods would be ideal and from what I've read it seems to me a basic G50 would be more than adequate.

Paul,

By standard rods I should have said stock Ford rods which come in the standard production motor. They seem to be pretty nuggety (sorry Kiwi slang I think, read - strong). I would be upgrading with ARP fasteners though.

Bill,

The cam will probably be solid flat tappet and I don't think this will present a problem. I will be building the engine myself but will be out sourcing the machining and balancing. There are not many 351 Windsors in NZ, most Ford V8's are Aussie based Clevelands. I currently have a US sourced Windsor heading my way in a container due at the end of next month. No idea of it's condition yet though!

Mike,

I couldn't agree more with your comments. This will be my initial motor to get me going. I am trying to get maximum bang for my bucks. If I find I have to upgrade the rods then I will but I don't want to spend money unnecessarily. Once the car is sorted and finances recover I would like to build an alloy block 408 with forged internals and then shout the trans a close ratio gearset.Before that I've got to source parts and build a car!

Russ

 

[JimmyMac]

Russ,
If it's a standard type rod you are after, have a look at Blue Thunder's new "Indy" rods.

 

[Russ Noble]

Thanks James,

I'm trying to build a budget motor and would prefer to not have to change my rods, this is more a question as to the rev limits of the original rods fitted to standard motors as they roll off the Ford production lines.

Russ

 

[Mike Dozier]

The rev limit of USED rods is unknown since you can't tell
how many hi-rpm cycles they've been through.

For a budget 351W I'd have the rods checked by a competent
shop inc magnaflux, install a set of ARP bolts, and limit the rpm to maybe 5500. If it's got hydraulic lifters and stock valve springs, that's all it's good for anyway.

MikeD

 

[Dave Wharran]

As noted, there are a lot more aftermarket parts for Clevelands in Austrailia since Ford produced the engine there a lot longer. Several manufacturers there now offer aluminum heads in 2V, 3V, and 4V flavors. Also coming is an aluminum Cleveland block. Aluminum Block

Aftermarket parts in the US can be had if you hunt them, at usually a premimum over Windsor parts.

I'm running stock Cleveland rods, poslished, magnafluxed, with ARP bolts, to 6000 rpm (6200 rev limited). No problems. The Crane hydraulic roller and valve train makes power to almost 6K.

Love my Cleveland!! although it was a tight fit into the ERA.

 

Hey anyone want to take a stab at a budget 351W build list or perhaps a link to a good buildup on the web. The donor engine is out of a 85 Ford E-150 Van. I'm going to take a sledge hammer to the Holly carb so that will not be an option;-) I wouldn't mind a new manifold with an IDA style EFI setup. But beyond that anyone have any good ideas what the motor needs?