Gotta love Italians!
- Thread starter roaldin
- Start date
D
DavidTC
Guest
Ageed,
What about a DB9 or a Mclaren F1 doing the honours for a real Olympic event in London. We could at least advertise something we are genuinely world class at.
David
What about a DB9 or a Mclaren F1 doing the honours for a real Olympic event in London. We could at least advertise something we are genuinely world class at.
David
Yeah, right...that was absolutely to nice at all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banana.gif
The driver should be Luca Badoer, official tester of ferrari, and that dance was something really too nice to see.
..is a way to remind all Italy, also with so many problems, is even the land of automotive passion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif
...and I am too happy to have discovered the gt40 world in this Ferrari land, in my costant hope to bring one down here.I am really a ferrari enthusiast fan (who doesnt love that down here??) but I think the spirit of OLD ferrari team was something much more special, and much more nearer to this little car lovers world I found in this great forum.
....think surely Enzo Ferrari would bless me to love anyway our nicest enemy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Paolo
The driver should be Luca Badoer, official tester of ferrari, and that dance was something really too nice to see.
..is a way to remind all Italy, also with so many problems, is even the land of automotive passion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif
...and I am too happy to have discovered the gt40 world in this Ferrari land, in my costant hope to bring one down here.I am really a ferrari enthusiast fan (who doesnt love that down here??) but I think the spirit of OLD ferrari team was something much more special, and much more nearer to this little car lovers world I found in this great forum.
....think surely Enzo Ferrari would bless me to love anyway our nicest enemy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Paolo
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DavidTC
Guest
Yeh
But in 66 Enzo was also coping with F1 and Surtees defection to Cooper !. What have Ford ever done in F1, Jaguar's contribution was a joke !. Forza Ferrari my friend even if we do love the GT40.
David
But in 66 Enzo was also coping with F1 and Surtees defection to Cooper !. What have Ford ever done in F1, Jaguar's contribution was a joke !. Forza Ferrari my friend even if we do love the GT40.
David
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
[ QUOTE ]
What have Ford ever done in F1, Jaguar's contribution was a joke !. Forza Ferrari my friend even if we do love the GT40.
David
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome David -
Surely the Ford Cosworth DFV cannot be ignored? 155 Grand-Prix Victories.....
View them here
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
What have Ford ever done in F1, Jaguar's contribution was a joke !. Forza Ferrari my friend even if we do love the GT40.
David
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome David -
Surely the Ford Cosworth DFV cannot be ignored? 155 Grand-Prix Victories.....
View them here
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
D
DavidTC
Guest
Paul
Cosworth had a great record as V8 builders , but this was essentially a UK operation 'acquired by 'the blue oval. The point is Enzo was the only one to do everything in one organisation ie design and build the car and drive train. Jaguar was Ford's first attempt at doing the whole nine yards and they were an abject failure. Presumably you think Mercedes build F1 engines ?.
Regards
David
Cosworth had a great record as V8 builders , but this was essentially a UK operation 'acquired by 'the blue oval. The point is Enzo was the only one to do everything in one organisation ie design and build the car and drive train. Jaguar was Ford's first attempt at doing the whole nine yards and they were an abject failure. Presumably you think Mercedes build F1 engines ?.
Regards
David
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
[ QUOTE ]
Presumably you think Mercedes build F1 engines ?.
Regards
David
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually no - I would guess Ilmor but I'm sure someone can enlighten me to be sure..
I came in peace /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
I depart in pieces /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flamer.gif
Presumably you think Mercedes build F1 engines ?.
Regards
David
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually no - I would guess Ilmor but I'm sure someone can enlighten me to be sure..
I came in peace /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
I depart in pieces /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flamer.gif
F1? Not much if you choose to see things that way, but surely it's how they've done in real racing that matters... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/1poke.gif
From the above posts I take it that the Italians can be proud of their Ferrari, the UK of it's component manufacture? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I remind you at this time of our hats with corks!
Tim.
I defend the Winter Olympics as the only games of "real" interest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
From the above posts I take it that the Italians can be proud of their Ferrari, the UK of it's component manufacture? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I remind you at this time of our hats with corks!
Tim.
I defend the Winter Olympics as the only games of "real" interest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
D
DavidTC
Guest
Guys
Whilst we are being nice to our European colleagues; we should laud the contributions to engine technology made by Renault in F1. The first to successfully apply turbocharging and the first to successfully introduce the pnuematic valve lift high revving engines now de riguer in F1. Recall that Porche's attempt at the later was a total disaster with the short lived Lola F1 team; the classic overweight and underpowered design philosophy.
The guys with corks on their hats produce great wines of course as do our european neighbours.
David
Whilst we are being nice to our European colleagues; we should laud the contributions to engine technology made by Renault in F1. The first to successfully apply turbocharging and the first to successfully introduce the pnuematic valve lift high revving engines now de riguer in F1. Recall that Porche's attempt at the later was a total disaster with the short lived Lola F1 team; the classic overweight and underpowered design philosophy.
The guys with corks on their hats produce great wines of course as do our european neighbours.
David
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Keith,
Desmodromic is slightly different and doesn't rely on Pneumatics. The cams both open and close the valves.
Desmodromic principle was originally designed in 1910 by an English Engineer called Arnott.
I'll send you a picture on email
1956
Assistente tecnico (Engineer) Taglioni leads the way to the Ducati desmodromic system: for the first time, a desmodromic timing system with three overhead camshafts, driven by a vertical shaft and a bevel gear, is mounted on a 125 Grand Prix bike: this bike and its rider Degli Antoni win the first race, the Swedish GP.
From now on, the desmodromic system becomes a Ducati exclusive.
1968
To see the first mass-produced desmo, we will have to wait until the Mark 3 Desmo 350 in 1968. This bike has practically the same timing system as today's twin-cylinder, two-valve bikes, which is evidence of its exceptional efficiency.
Desmodromic is slightly different and doesn't rely on Pneumatics. The cams both open and close the valves.
Desmodromic principle was originally designed in 1910 by an English Engineer called Arnott.
I'll send you a picture on email
1956
Assistente tecnico (Engineer) Taglioni leads the way to the Ducati desmodromic system: for the first time, a desmodromic timing system with three overhead camshafts, driven by a vertical shaft and a bevel gear, is mounted on a 125 Grand Prix bike: this bike and its rider Degli Antoni win the first race, the Swedish GP.
From now on, the desmodromic system becomes a Ducati exclusive.
1968
To see the first mass-produced desmo, we will have to wait until the Mark 3 Desmo 350 in 1968. This bike has practically the same timing system as today's twin-cylinder, two-valve bikes, which is evidence of its exceptional efficiency.
D
DavidTC
Guest
David
Agreed; but F1 has learned a few things from the motorbike community about other aspects of building high revving engines. Recall that 40 years ago Honda only made a few motorbikes but within 20 years were well in to F1 engines and cars for the consumer markets.
Regards
David
Agreed; but F1 has learned a few things from the motorbike community about other aspects of building high revving engines. Recall that 40 years ago Honda only made a few motorbikes but within 20 years were well in to F1 engines and cars for the consumer markets.
Regards
David
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
I remember the first Honda CB72 - quite amazing in its day.
Revved like silk, beat all the stock Triumphs, Nortons, and Greeves. Twin L/S brake, Starter, no wonder the UK manufacurers went under.
Great days with pilgrimages to go and watch Mike the Bike stuff Giacomo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banana.gif
Even I've gone foreign with my Motorcycle.
Think Italian !
In fact I don't think we have one car in the family thats made in the UK, save the GTD.
Revved like silk, beat all the stock Triumphs, Nortons, and Greeves. Twin L/S brake, Starter, no wonder the UK manufacurers went under.
Great days with pilgrimages to go and watch Mike the Bike stuff Giacomo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banana.gif
Even I've gone foreign with my Motorcycle.
Think Italian !
In fact I don't think we have one car in the family thats made in the UK, save the GTD.
Interesting stuff David. I always understood that JL Norton in fact held a patent on the desmodromic valve system, so called as meaning a tethered or tied (from the Greek)valve system unlike the more familiar free moving valve and spring arrangement, enabling the valve to be both opened and closed without springs by a dedicated system (the motivating force, i.e. pneumatics, hydraulics or mechanical seems to be irrelevant to the patented concept) enabling higher revs and more precise valve timing as springs are the limiting factor. I also believed that Mercedes actually paid JL Norton a license fee to use this in their W96 “Silver Arrow” car. BRM also used a variation and I think Renault were possibly the first company to use pneumatics to operate their desmodromic valve system but you would know that better than I.
Am I also right in think that everyone now uses hydraulics for this purpose?
Thanks for the fascinating period drawings.
Am I also right in think that everyone now uses hydraulics for this purpose?
Thanks for the fascinating period drawings.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
This Forum has the most fascinating debates sometimes.
I was unaware of JL Norton - I guess because of tunnel vision vis-a vis the 999 I ride.
If you don't count the motivating force of the Desmo idea,
there are countless examples in everyday life - even the refuelling valves used at airports on the standard refuelling bowsers and hydrants uses hydraulic pressure to open and close the refuel valves in the aeroplane. The silent fill valve in your water cystern at home uses hydraulics to open and close. So many more.
Yes, you are right about hydraulics now - until some bright young gun comes up with something better.
So Keith, thank you for the additional info.
I was unaware of JL Norton - I guess because of tunnel vision vis-a vis the 999 I ride.
If you don't count the motivating force of the Desmo idea,
there are countless examples in everyday life - even the refuelling valves used at airports on the standard refuelling bowsers and hydrants uses hydraulic pressure to open and close the refuel valves in the aeroplane. The silent fill valve in your water cystern at home uses hydraulics to open and close. So many more.
Yes, you are right about hydraulics now - until some bright young gun comes up with something better.
So Keith, thank you for the additional info.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Paolo\'s thread Hijacked - now Valves /desmodromic etc
I asked Pat Symonds about the system on the Renault engine - My question: Would you describe the valves in the engine as Hydraulic/ Desmodromic or something else?
His reply:
Neither really Dave.
A desmodromic valve is positively closed as well as opened – in other words it doesn’t just rely on a spring to close it.
Neither are the valves hydraulic. What they are is pneumatic. They are very similar to most overhead cam valves. They operate via a finger follower (whereas many engines just have the cam acting directly on a bucket which holds the tappet shim) Where they are different is that there is no coil spring. This is replaced by an air spring which has the advantage of not having a single natural frequency at which it will bounce and also can, by adjusting the pressure in it, give just enough return force to close the valve without wasting any power. This of course can be adjusted depending on what engine speed you are running.
Hope this helps,
Pat
[mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 13 February 2006 14:17
Symonds, Pat
Subject: Desmodromic
I asked Pat Symonds about the system on the Renault engine - My question: Would you describe the valves in the engine as Hydraulic/ Desmodromic or something else?
His reply:
Neither really Dave.
A desmodromic valve is positively closed as well as opened – in other words it doesn’t just rely on a spring to close it.
Neither are the valves hydraulic. What they are is pneumatic. They are very similar to most overhead cam valves. They operate via a finger follower (whereas many engines just have the cam acting directly on a bucket which holds the tappet shim) Where they are different is that there is no coil spring. This is replaced by an air spring which has the advantage of not having a single natural frequency at which it will bounce and also can, by adjusting the pressure in it, give just enough return force to close the valve without wasting any power. This of course can be adjusted depending on what engine speed you are running.
Hope this helps,
Pat
[mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 13 February 2006 14:17
Symonds, Pat
Subject: Desmodromic
D
DavidTC
Guest
Re: Paolo\'s thread Hijacked - now Valves /desmodromic etc
David
Thinga are now clearer, we don't have the same F1 contacts!.
I agree, some interesting peripheral to GT40 topics raised on this thread.
Regards
David
David
Thinga are now clearer, we don't have the same F1 contacts!.
I agree, some interesting peripheral to GT40 topics raised on this thread.
Regards
David