Graz Starter

[Frank Clark]

I had battery next to the engine and used 4ga. With stock LS7 it would often not crank on first attempt. Upgraded to 2/0 wire and it would zing the motor over every time. 2/0 is overkill. But you probably need 2ga at least. If the run battery to starter is over 6 feet, go to 1/0.

if the run goes through a switch, try bypassing the switch and see what it does.

You can test all this with a GOOD set of jumper cables. Leaving all else hooked up, put cables on the battery. Other end, ground to a starter bolt, positive to the starter hit stud. If that “fixes” your issue it’s either ground or supply issue.

 

[JordonMusser]

starts right up cold, so its tough to measure.. needs to be nice n hot. heh.

tempted to throw a small battery in the back of the car near the starter i parallel to help with the load.

 

[JordonMusser]

Also, I am running 1/0 and a 1awg in parallel.

battery in front, so decent length of run.. 10ft probably.

Another data point.. friend has the exact same build, but with a Porsche trans and starter.. zero issues.

 

[Dan Carter]

I'm bringing this one back from the dead file. There I was going home minding my own business at a stop light, looking cool and all, when the engine dies and smoke puffs out from under the bonnet. I get some help and we push the car into a parking lot, call my wife to bring the trailer and we get her home. After some time, this is what I found:

Ground wire on starter burned off. So, all you electrical guru's out there, what might the cause be?

There has been a lot of debate on the capability of this starter, but I have not found a better one that will mate up to the Graz.....anyone?

 

[Ken Roberts]

The car accidentally stalled at the lights then upon trying to restart it you got the puff of smoke and no start condition? I can’t see how you would get a fried ground wire at the starter just idling at the lights. There would/should be no current flowing in the starter circuit while the engine is running.
Here is a picture of my OEM Audi R8 starter for comparison. looks similar to yours Dan.

 

[Dan Carter]

I concur. The car was making an odd noise when I left the lot. Drove about a mile then it all shut down. I wonder if the starter clutch failed to release and that is what I was hearing. I want to hook it up to a battery and see if it will spin.....

I assume no one has found a reduction gear starter to fit the Graz. Wonder which starter the R8 or Lamborghini race boys use?

 

[Ken Roberts]

Sounds like it could have been an issue with the starter not disengaging like you say. What kind of start/ignition switch do you use Dan? Check the relay for the starter to see if it is stuck in the closed position. Put some kind of heat protection wrap or shield on/near the starter to help mitigate heat transfer. Lots of the C6 Corvette enthusiasts report short starter motor life when they install long tube headers.

 

[Dan Carter]

Heat wrap was on it. Got to check the button......not sure what quality it is. Probably best to upgrade it. Looks nice but......

 

[Neil]

From the look of that burned wire, it was conducting LOTS of current! It isn't the ground wire, BTW it is the wire that puts +12V on the starter motor. The ground return is probably through the motor frame. The question is, what would cause such a high current through the starter motor. Lots of possibilities- what does the Bendix gear and ring gear look like? Buggered up? The condition of those gears should offer a clue as to whether the gear accidentally engaged or never disengaged after starting the engine. Something caused the engine to stall. I suspect whatever that was is associated with your burned wire. Even if the motor armature or field winding shorted to ground, there should not have been a any current flowing since the solenoid contacts would have been open circuit.

 

[Dan Carter]

Good thoughts Neil. I’m going to take it apart today and see if it’s an obvious breakdown. I just took my ohm meter and ran a continuity check across that wire and the pos terminal of the solenoid and did not get any reading. I then touched the leads to the wire and the motor housing and the meter indicated continuity even though broken off the motor. Once the solenoid closes if I understand it correctly, the plus side of the circuit is closed and the current is transferred from the battery lead across the burnt line down to the motor. I had a heat blanket wrapped around the starter and the blanket has an aluminum cover of sorts......I noted it definitely touched that wire and may be a causal issue. I had to crank a bit longer than usual just prior to the failure. Perhaps that was the cause??????

 

[Ian Anderson]

Is that short woven wire just tack welded / brazes or similar to the motor case? If so what sort of cross sectional contat is it making? By the look of it not much indeed, and looking at Kens photo the "weld" almost loots like it would work like a large fuse!
What would happen if you ran a proper crimped cable direct from Battery or chassis bypassing the body of the motor direct to the "negative" bolt?

Ian

 

[JordonMusser]

On this subject but not the starter power wire.. I replaced my battery cut off switch with a super HD one for commercial vehicles (3000amp start/500amp cont) and the problem seems to be fixed. I did also replace the starter as i smoked a winding on it trying to start it with "the issue"

for ref I am running the amazon bosch starter, and 1gauge + 1/0 gauge from to back (in parallel, because the 1 gauge was already there and I added the 1/0)

 

[Howard Jones]

Some Starter solenoids are magnetic prone when using a remote relay and long wire runs and have a tendency to hold the collapsing magnetic field through the long runs of wire, long enough for the starter to become a "Generator" that will hold the solenoid in and powered. This keeps the starter engaged and then the starter will now turn at engine speed until it just overheats and spins itself to pieces.

The noise you heard could have been the starter running at engine speed. Normal starter speed is significantly less than normal engine idle speed. You can see that it would only take a couple of blocks even at moderate speed to really give a stuck starter a good death spin. This condition is rare but real and it did happen to my GTD 20 odd years ago. The spinning starter created and magnetic field strong enough to magnetically clamp the starter forward in the run position by using the metal housing of the starter itself. I'll bet your starter case is steel and not aluminum...........right?

I added a second solenoid to the circuit and hooked the ignition start wire to it and then to the starter coil in series. Then I ran the large main power wire through the additional solenoid main contacts in series with the starter mounted solenoid main contacts, Now the remote solenoid controls the mounted solenoid and prevents the magnetic field from building in the long wire run because it is cut as soon as the remote solenoid is cut off. It's been wired like that for 25 years now.

It also could not be any of this magnetic deal and just a mechanical misfitting jamming the starter in the engaged position. The purely mechanical jamming would not necessarily cause the high current condition although it may have turned into a generator and produced enough current to burn up that power lead. In any case, the burned wire that you seemed to have in addition to the over-revved starter could be account for by a magnetically pulled in starter solenoid and engaged starter condition.

 

[Brian Kissel]

Well said Howard.

Regards Brian

 

[Dan Carter]

Howard: Yes it’s steel. Interesting on adding second solenoid. I wouldn’t think having the infinity system would have any impact on that wiring pattern by sending the solenoid start signal to the second relay then from second relay to the starter. I suspected something as you described but could not explain it. I would never have suspected the scenario you explained. Thanks for the info, new data point I never knew.

 

[JordonMusser]

I have never heard of that. built a LOT of cars.

 

[Neil]

Howard, I doubt that a starter solenoid could be held in by the magnetic field of a long cable. An inductive time constant is determined by the circuit's inductance (among other things) so a time constant long enough to hold the solenoid in for an appreciable period would require many, many Henries of inductance. There's no way the cable has anywhere near enough inductance to cause that. I think you're right about the solenoid holding the starter in engagement with the ring gear but I suspect it was caused by the solenoid contacts welding themselves together for a short time. This happens to switches and relays now and then.

Pulling the solenoid apart and inspecting the contacts may be helpful.

 

[Howard Jones]

Neil, I agreed with you all the way up to the point I took my old GTD starter to a rebuild shop. Ya they still had them then. I told the guy what was happening. The starter would engage normally and remain engaged until I pulled off the battery pos. connection. I wanted him to rebuild the starter because I couldn't figure out what was happening. The old guy says "Does it go magnetic?" I couldn't for the life of me reconcile the math with what he was saying either, BUT he also said hold a screwdriver up near the starter while it doing it and see if it is.

I did that and I'll be damned if the screwdriver stuck to the starter until I pulled the battery cable off. Fuck me! I thought I KNEW that couldn't be happening. I even started asking around if we had a gaussmeter In the electronic shop I could take home but in those days the nice little handhelds were not common and expensive and we didn't have one. In any case, the second solenoid fixed it. Go figure.......

 

[Neil]

It may be a case of the magnetic field of the starter motor acting on the plunger in the solenoid, holding it closed rather than some inductance of the cable. Weird in any case.

 

[Dan Carter]

Howard mentioned placing another solenoid in the starter circuit. I am using the Infinity system, so I drew myself the diagram below. My question is how to connect the 12V+ "exciter" voltage from the Infinity system to activate the added solenoid AND the solenoid on the starter itself. The picture captures the as is, and what I think may be the suggested set up. I believe this works, but with all the discussion on what the starter can do etc, I don't know how to protect the circuit from the potentials. Not being of sound mind with electricity, I want to bounce this picture off you guys.