Healthcare

[WEGENER Engineering]

Interestingly, if you look at survival rates for
African Americans, the US rates are significantly worse, which is used to show that if
you can afford it, the US system is great, but if not, it isn't. Which appears to be the
issue, no?

Ian

I read from this statement that all blacks are poor and therefore do not have access to health care. If I was black I would be offended by such generalizations.
Here are more statistics for ya:
Statistics show that Blacks are more likely to be employed by large corporations (excellent health care), are in jail in large numbers (excellent healthcare) or are legally registered as either welfare recipients or the perpetually unemployed with again easy access to health care.
Now what?
Isn't it time that we leave the statistics and race mongering behind?

 

[Mark Clapp]

The president and most democrats want to spend billions (most likely trillions) so that underpriviliged people can get healthcare; a noble ambition. Are they also willing to watch the same people freeze to death or die from heat stroke when they can't pay energy bills due to cap and trade? Who's being saved? Will he buy them all a hydrogen fuel cell to so they can get off electricity and natural gas? I'm mixing issues but this is the insanity of the liberal agenda being forced on all and at a record pace.

 

I read from this statement that all blacks are poor and therefore do not have access to health care. If I was black I would be offended by such generalizations.
Here are more statistics for ya:
Statistics show that Blacks are more likely to be employed by large corporations (excellent health care), are in jail in large numbers (excellent healthcare) or are legally registered as either welfare recipients or the perpetually unemployed with again easy access to health care.
Now what?
Isn't it time that we leave the statistics and race mongering behind?

Source please,

IMSA

 

The president and most democrats want to spend billions (most likely trillions) so that underpriviliged people can get healthcare; a noble ambition. Are they also willing to watch the same people freeze to death or die from heat stroke when they can't pay energy bills due to cap and trade? Who's being saved? Will he buy them all a hydrogen fuel cell to so they can get off electricity and natural gas? I'm mixing issues but this is the insanity of the liberal agenda being forced on all and at a record pace.

What are you basing your statements on. Show me how cap and trade is going to put the cost of energy too high for many to pay. An independent source would be appreciated if you want to be taken seriously.

IMSA

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

What are you basing your statements on. Show me how cap and trade is going to put the cost of energy too high for many to pay. An independent source would be appreciated if you want to be taken seriously.

IMSA

Geeeez, Cap & Trade is going to tax generating plants, refining plants, and any other plant with a "carbon footprint". The cost will be passed along to who? The taxpayers, you and I. Knock off the page and verse crap will you? That's what the bill will do along with taxing the all important cow fart!

 

[Al Jones]

Hey Al, I noticed nobody asked for documentation on the cow fart!!!

 

Geeeez, Cap & Trade is going to tax generating plants, refining plants, and any other plant with a "carbon footprint". The cost will be passed along to who? The taxpayers, you and I. Knock off the page and verse crap will you? That's what the bill will do along with taxing the all important cow fart!

We've been through this before so pay attention this time. If someone's going to state something as fact they need to back up the statement with facts. It's not that difficult. And no, I don't consider Fox News, the usual collection of talking heads like Hannity and Limbaugh, NRO, The American Thinker ,or the other wack job conservative sites independent and credible sources. I could always start linking to the Democratic Underground, Huffington Post, and the Raw Story if you would like.

You may not have noticed, but we were starting to have a rational and insightful discussion on the main topic of health care before the the usual and predictable BS started again.

IMSA

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

IMSA, people have wised up to the healthcare bs that's being push through sympathy (Ted Kennedy) and the content of the healthcare bill. It is detrimental and very costly to the taxpayer. It's not going to pass, give it a rest!

 

IMSA, people have wised up to the healthcare bs that's being push through sympathy (Ted Kennedy) and the content of the healthcare bill. It is detrimental and very costly to the taxpayer. It's not going to pass, give it a rest!

And just who exactly are these "people" that have wised up to the content of the bill? And which bill? There''s 3 in congress and 2 in the senate. The deal is, Obama ran with the promise of reforming health care, that's why a majority of voters voted him into office. Our side won, your side lost, deal with it.

We can spend a bizillion dollars on an unjust war started on false claims and that's not detrimental to the American tax payer? But it's detrimental to invest in our citizens through public health care? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And speaking of war, how on earth can you possibly think of criticizing a President in a time of war!! After all the talk we've heard for the last 7 years that it's unpatriotic and un-American to question or criticize a President in a time at war. I would think you would be more patriotic. Why do you hate America?



IMSA

 

[WEGENER Engineering]

Why do you hate America?

Yeah - Why do you Al?

 

[speed220mph]

The "Healthcare" like Cap and Trade, the Stimulus, the Fairness doctrine and all the other passed bills or proposed bills under the guise of "we're he to help you" is all about control and nothing else. And what eventually happens under government control is bankruptcy, i.e., the Postal system, Medicare, Fanny Mae, Freddie Mac, Social Security and on and on. These experiences should hint at what would we would be looking forward to if we get government control of our health system. Here are some for instances:

Article from the Telegraph:

Sentenced to death on the NHS
Patients with terminal illnesses are being made to die prematurely under an NHS scheme to help end their lives, leading doctors have warned.

By Kate Devlin, Medical Correspondent
Published: 10:00PM BST 02 Sep 2009

In a letter to The Daily Telegraph, a group of experts who care for the terminally ill claim that some patients are being wrongly judged as close to death.

Under NHS guidance introduced across England to help doctors and medical staff deal with dying patients, they can then have fluid and drugs withdrawn and many are put on continuous sedation until they pass away.

But this approach can also mask the signs that their condition is improving, the experts warn.

As a result the scheme is causing a “national crisis” in patient care, the letter states. It has been signed palliative care experts including Professor Peter Millard, Emeritus Professor of Geriatrics, University of London, Dr Peter Hargreaves, a consultant in Palliative Medicine at St Luke’s cancer centre in Guildford, and four others.

“Forecasting death is an inexact science,”they say. Patients are being diagnosed as being close to death “without regard to the fact that the diagnosis could be wrong.

“As a result a national wave of discontent is building up, as family and friends witness the denial of fluids and food to patients."

The warning comes just a week after a report by the Patients Association estimated that up to one million patients had received poor or cruel care on the NHS.

For the complete story:
Sentenced to death on the NHS - Telegraph

 

[domtoni]

All good points guys.

Bottom line is health care will cost an employer 8% more on his wage bill. Not split with the employee. If its like here in EU, then you just put the cost plus the overheads onto your sell price.

Cap and Trade - my cousin runs the family metal finishing business in Chicago (which he bought 15 years ago from his dad). He uses a huge amount of water, electricity and gas. The water is from Chicago, and Chicago and the energy providers wanted to raise his utility costs by 30%. Remember that prices have not risen, so making money requires one to be smarter than his competitor.

No consumer wants to pay any more for his goods than he has to. As I said before, and our EU friends can confirm, socialized countries cost more to run.

I found the Democratic Underground quite amusing. No where near as entertaining as Hannity, or Limbaugh !!!

I understand the problems with insurance. Here in EU, if you want to go private, the insurance companies will also take into consideration "pre-existing conditions." So its not just the good old US of A. An old boss lives in Indiana, and has taken an Indiana State policy, will try to get what it covers and what it doesn't.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Yeah - Why do you Al?

That's funny, I think that everyone here loves America, at least I hope so! We have a healthcare system that is working, granted it has problems. I think Tort Reform would go a long way towards reducing insurance costs. But with a voting body made up of a lot of lawyers and supported monetarily by lawyers this is not going to happen until we make a louder noise. BO says that there are 46 million people that are not insured. This is misleading. I looked at a bunch of census studies and these are the average numbers. We have about 12 million illegal aliens, 15 million that qualify for some kind of state/government plan but don't apply, 10 million young Americans with the income to afford insurance but choose to spend the money on "creature comforts" because they believe they are healthy, and 9 to 10 million people who actually have no access to healthcare but may be able to get state provided healthcare if they know about it and apply. So the actual number is about 10 million. Why doesnt the government put these people on Medicaid, bolster up Medicaid and be done with it. We need another huge, inefficiant, burracratic, government plan like I need another wife. Seems like a pretty easy fix, but then that doesn't give the government another strangleing hold and trillions in taxes to misappropriate. IMSA, I found these numbers on a bunch of search sites, they are all about the same, I averaged them, and no I am not going to source each one for you, if you doubt me look for yourself!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Where in the hell did this come from? IMSA did you forget to take your medication?

And just who exactly are these "people" that have wised up to the content of the bill? And which bill? There''s 3 in congress and 2 in the senate. The deal is, Obama ran with the promise of reforming health care, that's why a majority of voters voted him into office. Our side won, your side lost, deal with it.

We can spend a bizillion dollars on an unjust war started on false claims and that's not detrimental to the American tax payer? But it's detrimental to invest in our citizens through public health care? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And speaking of war, how on earth can you possibly think of criticizing a President in a time of war!! After all the talk we've heard for the last 7 years that it's unpatriotic and un-American to question or criticize a President in a time at war. I would think you would be more patriotic. Why do you hate America?





IMSA

 

[Ian K]

I read from this statement that all blacks are poor and therefore do not have access to health care. If I was black I would be offended by such generalizations.
Here are more statistics for ya:
Statistics show that Blacks are more likely to be employed by large corporations (excellent health care), are in jail in large numbers (excellent healthcare) or are legally registered as either welfare recipients or the perpetually unemployed with again easy access to health care.
Now what?
Isn't it time that we leave the statistics and race mongering behind?

You misread then. The truth is, African Americans are still, on average, in lower income brackets. This is still a fact. Secondly, not all large corporations have excellent health
care. Thirdly, the prison system also does not have excellent health care - actually, the
reverse is true:

Many in U.S. Prisons Lack Good Health Care - US News and World Report

And fourthly, welfare and unemployment also do not guarantee excellent
health care.

This isn't about race mongering, but the statistics (which Al was the first to tout) are
important. When the difference in remission rates between African Americans and the rest
are 10 to 20 points lower, race becomes an issue. Otherwise, the CONCORD study would
not have looked at those differences.

Ian

 

[domtoni]

Just spoke at length to a friend in Indiana. Both she and her husband have private health cover.

He is on "Indiana Comprehensive". A plan for all people in Indiana, run by Blue Cross / Blue Shield, that accepts all people with pre-existing conditions. Cost per month for this gentleman (Tom would be shocked to know he was referred to as a gentleman) is less than $750. $5000 deductable. His wife is on an identical plan without pre-existing conditions and a $2500 deductable for less than $350 per month (sorry don't remember the exact figure).

She further believes the program is in place in all states, so people can buy (at a price) health insurance that covers pre-existing conditions.

Any further comments here?

If this is true, then what we see is:
- we have private cover in all states
- it covers pre-existing conditions
- it is not cheap (but either is the German state supported system)

 

[domtoni]

Take a look at this article. Let's see if I can summarize:
- written by a democrat supporting businessman
- the U.S. health care cost increases have been a few percentage points per annum higher than state supported medicine
- he prevents a workable alternative to Medicaid, and how to get cost out of running a private insurance scheme

How American Health Care Killed My Father - The Atlantic (September 2009)

Long but well worth reading.

 

[domtoni]

A good one from Yahoo

Obama Had Years Of Warning That Healthcare Would Be a Debacle: Tech Ticker, Yahoo! Finance

 

[domtoni]

Here is an interesting link from the Democratic Underground.

Democratic Underground - Survival seems dependent on economic status and access to health care - Democratic Underground

They confimred that the U.S. has a higher survival rate, its right at the top.

 

[Ian K]

Here is an interesting link from the Democratic Underground.

Democratic Underground - Survival seems dependent on economic status and access to health care - Democratic Underground

They confimred that the U.S. has a higher survival rate, its right at the top.

As well as access to health care and economic status playing a major role ...

They are citing the CONCORD study I cited earlier - that was the big news when
it was published in Lancet.

Ian