Holley Problems

[Jonathan Strain]

I have a new Holley 4150 on my GT40. The engine was acting up like the jets were fouled. When I cracked open the carb the plating on the inside of the bowls was pealing off like a bad paint job and the metal underneath was oxidizing and filling the bowl with sand like oxide. It is well out of the 90 day warrantee so I will probably end up eating this one.

Has anyone else had this problem with a Holley?

 

[Randy V]

I've got a 600 CFM double-pumper in my shop that is the same way...

On the one I have I suspect that there was some condensation or water in the fuel because there is the tell-tale white corrosion as well. I am not so sure how well Chrome can hang onto the Zinc / Pot-metal that these carbs are made of...

 

[Jonathan Strain]

I do not think this was a condensation issue. The plating failed everywhere in the bowl. Even above the fuel level. If it was water I would expect it only on the bottom. I think it is bad prep on the metal before the plating.

 

[StanJ]

~Sigh~ Guys, welcome to the armpit of today's "global" economy.

Holley has been on increasingly unstable financial footing since being purchased by Colt Industries in 1968. The first decade under Colt weren't really all that bad; Detroit was still buying hundreds of thousands of carburetors per year for O.E.M. use, keeping cash in the pipeline. But as fuel injection became more common during mid 80's, demand for carburetors started to dry up...as did capital for new products, production q/c and things like casting-die maintenance. Unfortunately, Colt/Holley's response was to start a downward spiral of production cost reduction (nearly ALWAYS at the expense of product quality) and bald-faced protectionism in the form of series sponsorship "deals" with various sanctioning bodies (NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, etc.) in exchange for rules requiring the use of specific Holley products and prohibiting the use of superior quality components from other manufacturers. Example: the cast aluminum throttle bodies on a Holley 390cfm HP series carbs are notorious for the ears breaking off. Holley's W/D pricing to dealers on this part is currently $119.77, and you guys would pay something above that for it. A functionally identical -- and practically unbreakable -- part machined from 6061 billet aluminum is available from a half-dozen different manufacturers (including us) for around $87.00...but they are illegal for use in ANY NASCAR sanctioned event.

In 1994, the Holley Carburetor Division of Colt Industries was sold to Borg-Warner, which -- although initially met with much optimism -- essentially sounded the death-knell. From the beginning, B-W viewed Holley as a cash-source to be squeezed until dry and then tossed aside. Many of the employees and managers who had been with the company for decades and who still took pride in their work were fired...many right before their retirement packages were to vest. Product quality slipped even further as production of nearly all of the company's aluminum and zinc cast parts was eventually outsourced to foundries in Asia (this is at the root of Jonathan's problem, but I'll get to that in a minute). Like a drunk who refused to admit he has a problem and seek help, Holley is now nearing "rock bottom"; having filed for bankruptcy on Feb. 12th, 2008.

Jonathan, the flaking and peeling you're seeign inside your float bowls is the result of Holley's offshore casting supplier having a rather different standards regarding the metallurgical composition of Zamac #3 casting alloy. The substandard alloy, incorrect temperature/pressure used in the production of thousands of Holley main bodies, metering blocks, and float bowls over the past 18 months has made the problem you describe quite common. As Big Foot mentioned, part of the problem is moisture related -- the white powdery substance your seeing on the floor of your float bowls is zinc oxide, which results from unprotected zinc coming into contact with oxygen from the water. The float bowls can usually be repaired by pressure-peening the interior and exterior surfaces to lift/remove the flaking areas and put the surface into compression, then adjusting the pH and iron content of the dichromate solution to be compatible with the existing metallurgy. Carburetor main bodies and metering blocks that exhibit these problems however, are basically junk; the porosity between the fuel passages is difficult to find and almost impossible to repair.

 

[EGLITOM]

Hallo
i´m not a holley specialist to say the least. Basically i have no glue about them.
THe only thing i know. is that i have one of them on my engine.
Is this issue accounting for all or just specific series of carbs. There are a lot of different 4150 types. Some of them are polished, some of them look chromed, some of them look like the bare aluminium.
I have a 4150 "Pro Series" Part #: 0-80541-1 650 cfm.
Is it likely that this carb has to face the same issues?
If so what´s your reco.

Thanks
TOM

 

[MReid]

I'm with Tom. Is this the dichromate finish peeling or is it a chrome carb? I have two Holley 4150 HP carbs on my GT40 that are currently working very well. Am I looking at a future problem?

 

[Jonathan Strain]

Mine was the Dichromate (flat gold finish).

 

[StanJ]

John, Mark, and Tom,

Your questions are most easily answered with photographs, as there are some characteristics that distinguish a batch of float bowls that is particularly prone to having the problems I've outlined. I'll post some pics here soon...assuming that I can get my camera back from the neighbor who borrowed it last year.

The silver-finish carbs that Holley has been selling under the "S" series moniker are the same castings as the brown/gold finish parts; Holley uses a different tumbling media (steel rather than ceramic) to achieve the "shiny" finish, and the iron is chemically leached out of the surface after dichromating, resulting in the silver color.

As far as I know, Holley's "Custom Shop" does still sell true chrome-plated float bowls. The very few of these that I've seen come through our shop seem to have held up pretty well, but they've all been the older, domestic castings rather than the problematic Asian stuff.

 

[Randy V]

This is the one in my shop... She's a mess.. Pretty well junk...

 

[Jonathan Strain]

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me!!!

My disappointment with Holley continues. All I could get locally was another Holley. I put it on and neither accelerator pump worked. They either over-torqued the pump nozzle screws or used a screw that was too long. Either way it was pinning the check ball on its seat. I do not believe that I will buy another Holley product. You should not have to do this much trouble shooting on a new product.

If they did any QA it would have been obvious. With the check balls pinned it was nearly impossible to move the levers on the accelerator pump diaphragms. You would think they would at least check that.

 

[StanJ]

My disappointment with Holley continues. All I could get locally was another Holley. I put it on and neither accelerator pump worked. They either over-torqued the pump nozzle screws or used a screw that was too long.

Actually, the cause is improperly installed squirter check-needle seats (not pressed in far enough); another problem that has become all too common in the past few years. We've seen so many of them -- literally in the hundreds -- that I finally made a combination gauge and repair tool specifically to address the problem.

 

[Howard Jones]

So.....What would you recommend for a production style carb now-a-days. I know there are many custom units out there but if I wanted to just buy a new 4 barrel in a box what would you think was a good cost/performance ratio carb. Lets say a 750 under $600. Demon?

 

[Phil]

Gentlemen
After many frustrations with Holley carbs in the past, and with more frequency nowadays we always use the Edelbrock Performer, essentially a copy of the old AFB.
Really good performance right out of the box if you match it correctly to your engine, and the driveability and midrange are much better than the Holley (just my opinion on that).
Most of the catalogs carry them, and a lot of the local performance shops also, but I would think a better deal is available from a catalog or on line.
I have a few holley bodies laying around for spare parts, and they also make good ashtrays.
Another problem I encountered with the later holley carbs was wear on the throttle shafts, which caused a vacuum leak making adjustments essentially moot, its almost not worth getting new parts.
Jonathan, keep your return spring from being excessively tight, or find a way to hook it up so it returns the linkage and doesn't put that stress on the throttle shaft.
Just my 2 cents
Cheers
Phil

 

[StanJ]

The Edelbrock Performer carbs work well in most applications if -- as Phil mentions -- they are properly tuned. The design doesn't lend itself to certain applications; larger displacement (430 cu.in +), short rod ratio engines with good cylinder heads and manifolds that present broad, deep vacuum spikes give it (as well as any other carb with oblique-shear discharge nozzles and air-valve actuated metering rods) fits at higher RPMs. For the average street driven small block up through medium displacement big-blocks though, they're fine.

Demon carburetors are essentially improved versions of the basic Holley design, and could be a viable alternative. The problem here is...again...quality control. While the situation does seem to have improved during the past 6-8 months, it's still so much of an issue that Summit Racing Equipment, one of the major retail vendors of automotive high performance equipment in America, no longer offers the Demon line of carburetors due to the number of "comebacks" and other warranty problems associated with them.

If I had to recommend a source for a good generic (as opposed to custom built for your specific application...in that case, it would be us) reasonably priced carburetor, I'd probably send you to Quick Fuel Technology. The owners - Marvin Benoit and Marty Brown - are two of the ex-Holley staff who received pink slips right before their retirement packages kicked in, and they are both straight-up guys. While they are my business competitors in a loose sense, our markets don't overlap all that much...and even if they did, I'd still have to recommend them. The ProForm castings that Quick Fuel uses in their carburetors also come from offshore foundries, but the latest versions are made of aluminum rather than zinc-based alloys and seem to be of good quality. Also, the Quick Fuel sales/technical staff does seem to give a damn about their customers.

 

[Rick]

Randy that looks like water for sure.

 

[StanJ]

Ok, finally retrieved my digital camera from the twilight zone known as “the neighbors”. As promised (and if anyone is still interested), here is a photo showing the evolution of Holley center-hung float bowls over the past 45 years or so.



The one on the top left is the earliest design that most of you are likely to come across. In addition to the stiffening ribs (which disappeared in the next generation of castings but would reappear in the problematic “Asian” castings), these “vintage” pieces are characterized by a list of applicable U.S. patent numbers cast right in to the part between the two bottom screw holes, and the use of a ball-style accelerator pump check valve rather than the one piece orange silicon rubber “umbrella” used in later versions.

The bowl on the bottom left is the design that came on most Holley carbs which used center-hung floats from the mid 80’s through about 2004. These castings were produced for Holley by Empire Foundries here in the U.S., and were generally of good quality, although after making the decision to take their business offshore Holley was guilty of selling several thousand defective ones (bowl screw holes so far out of position that the bowl screws could not even be installed…or if they could, the heads of the screws would not seat on the sealing gaskets) before the new pieces became available.

The bowl shown on the top right however, are the ones you should really be wary of. They are the first of the “Asian” parts, and well over half of them we’ve seen exhibit the casting and/or metallurgical problems I mentioned in my earlier post.

The part shown on the bottom right is the current design (shown here with our surface finishing and dichromate treatment). While certainly not exempt from problems, most of them so far seem to be of reasonable quality.

If you find that you own a Holley carburetor with the problem bowls, keep in mind that strictly speaking, all of the versions of these parts are interchangeable. There are differences in the float bowls used on the primary and secondary sides of the carburetor, and float bowls originally equipped on 4500 series (Dominator) carburetors and most “HP” 4150 series carburetors can be plumbed for fuel into either side of the bowl.

 

[Jac Mac]

Stan, in Randys pic the metering block also seems to be affected, so can we assume that any Holley with the 'problem ' bowls fitted is destined to suffer similar problems in any area that is in contact with fuel.

 

[Wayne M.]

Big Foot
Were you running any type of exotic fuel or E85? It sure looks like there was alot of moisture in those bowls? Let us know if you locate the problem.

 

[Randy V]

Big Foot
Were you running any type of exotic fuel or E85? It sure looks like there was alot of moisture in those bowls? Let us know if you locate the problem.

I had bought the carb from a fellow who had it on his Cobra replica because he replaced it with a larger carb. This one had sat on his shelf for a month or so before he shipped it to me. According to him the car ran fine but he wanted more top end power and went with a 750 carb. He swore that it was fine when he had it. I never put fuel in it - only pulled the bowls to check the jetting before I installed it on another car..
There was absolutely no outward appearance of any internal issues like you see in the photo.
I'm fully aware of what water will do to a carb like this and it appeared to me that it must've had moisture in it somewhere along the line. But - If the cladding / plating on these carbs does the very same thing with just fuel in them - well - that's an education for me...

 

[Rick]

I feel for those of you affected by poor quality product, there is no viable excuse for it. I have use this individual 3 times to redye the bowls, and meetering blocks, and main bodies for 650 DP and 750 DP Holley that I have redone for individuals. THe parts come back clean, evenly colored and nicely packed. Good turnaround time too. I would use him again without reservation. Click on the name below. I have a good picture of an assembled unit but don't know how to post a picture here. Send me an Email or PM

SMI Carburetor

Rick