motor questions

[Chris Kouba]

Couple questions floating around in my head and I would like to know what the experience of forum members has been on both topics.

First is crate vs. builder motors: I have seen the traffic on the forum previously voicing opinions as to which way to go. Has someone done both?
Any recommedations as to who to buy it from? I've cruised the Keith Craft site from the forum and come up with something like THIS. Definitely enough for what I am needing. The Ford Perf online catalog has THIS listed. Throw on a manifold and figure out the front dress/sump issues and probably looking at the same $'s as the Keith Craft motor.

I haven't ever had a motor built for me and just moved 1400 miles to a new city so I really don't have many contacts for getting a motor built in Phoenix. Can anyone recommend someone nearby here?


The second question... Carb vs. EFI: I like the concept of simple. The carb appeals to me for this reason- a mechanical pump, a single 4 bbl, slap on the manifold and drive. I caught the post of Dan's and Ron's carb builder and it sounds like that'd be money well spent. Conversely, the concept of EFI is very appealing for its drivability and superior performance (at least perceived). Would a simple carb really be as simple as I think (someone wanna rain on my parade?) or would the install and higher buy-in be worth it for the EFI? I was thinking something along the lines of THIS for a system (as much as I'd like 8 little stacks in the mirror, I feel cost might be a little prohibitive for me).

I realize it's a WIDE open question but I am getting closer to needing to make a decision. Thoughts/opinions?

Thanks in advance,
Chris

 

[Sandy]

Chris -

This should open a bunch of discussion

One of the things to look at is what components come with the motors. Didn't look that close but that would be a good thing to spec out, i.e., Do they come with roller rockers, forged crank, etc. One thing that I recall on some of the older threads was that it's still a good idea to check things like rod and main bolt torque. Some of the crate motors are not carefully built as I recall reading in some of the threads but I can't imagin them being all that bad as they prolly' sell tons of them. Don't know specifics about the Ford stuff. I have a KC engine going in, a bit more HP then what your looking for, but he was very helpful getting things together for me. If you do find a local guy one nice thing you can save a couple of bucks on shipping but if you pay local sales tax might be a wash.

Phoenix should be a good spot for finding a local builder, I would expect tons of 5.0 mustang boys floating around and should be a fair share of locals that do good work. Pick up a Mustang mag and you might find some in your area. Also poke around and find some Dyno shops they can usually give some advice of the engines that have rolled through their shops.

Carb vs. EFI. Doesn't get simpler then a Holley 4 BBL (or other brands for that matter). Plop it on and it will likely work all around pretty well. Do some work on it and spend a bit of time tuning and it will do very well. I bought a TWM EFI and Halltech fuel only computer setup for my car but decided to keep the holley until the car is all set up and all the bits are done, then I'll deal with the EFI. Just keep in mind possible plumbing (return lines, fuel pumps, regs, O2 sensor bungs, etc) and the conversion will be pretty simple. Stacks are nice, but the cost as mentioned is also to think about. A well worked carb and mainfold will be in the $1k range. The EFI mainfold (Like TWM's) and computer, pumps, etc will be in the $5k range or more. Worth it for the look alone but will be a bit more work to get going then the simple carb. Will it go faster then the carb, drive better, etc, .... who cares, they look better!

HTH

Sandy

 

[Peter Delaney]

Hi Chris,

I had a somewhat similar dilemma when my original motor had a bearing failure in one of the lifters - bits of it went throughout the motor & the failed lifter killed the cam. So, what to do - crate or rebuild ?

As Sandy suggested, the local Mustang guys will be a great source of info - over here, the majority of advice was to avoid a crate unless you want to strip it down & rebuild it (or my old block was a dead duck) - the boys have had lots of trouble with the crates over the years. They referred me to 2 local engine builders who seem to spend their lives working on SB Fords & have a superb rep with their customers.

The guy I picked had an interesting approach - he didn't want to listen to me babble on about big h/p, big name components, etc - he just asked 2 questions up-front :

- "What are you going to use the car for - road, race, or a bit of both" ?

- "Are you willing to pay for top-quality components" ?

After those issues were discussed, he went off & did the overall design for a strong but streetable 331 stroker & 3 weeks later, I couldn't be happier with the results !

My old motor had AFR 165's & a DC&O 8 stack (EFI is mandatory here for emissions), so these were re-used. Similar spec motors he has built have pulled 430hp on the engine dyno, so I am guessing that I have around the 400 or so - more than enough to scare me, & the motor is not yet fully run in !

But if your local regs allow it, I reckon that a Holley would be far easier & far, far cheaper - & you'd have it all running in a day or so. Bill Bayard started of with the carby approach, then changed later to a TWM setup on his 351 - fun & games with the EFI setup, but I think he is really glad he did.

As Sandy says, the 8 trumpets just look too damn cool ! An interesting side benefit of the OZ regs is that apart from EFI, you have to have a "high mounted stop light" mounted in the arch of the rear clip, top/centre just under the edge of the rear window - the local authorities probably just thought "Ah-ha - another way to mess with the GT40 brigade" - but little did they know that it was a blessing in disguise ! Pulling up to traffic lights at night, this stop-light floods the trumpets with an evil red glow - totally puts the "rice-boys" & their blue neons to shame !

Have Fun !

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

 

[Ian Anderson]

I have EFi on my Rover Engined car (the same as a Range Rover Runs)
So it is all stock parts and yet I battle to get anyone to look at it. Yes I can go to a tuning shop 100 miles or a second 200 miles away (trailer the car there at extra cost as it is not fuelling correctly) and then they estimate £200 - £500 to diagnose and tune and then add any parts that need changed AFM £200 Rechip Min £280 - money I do not have at present)

Paul Thompson also said he could look and perhaps diagnose but was unsure on how to tune / adjust the system - on the agreed date it rained so much he diagnosis was called off.

Yes I think the end result would be good but I seriously considered going back to a carb system as it would cost half the price for a complete set up (Manifold, gaskets, Carb, air cleaner) And with reading I could adjust the tune as in the "good ol' days" Emissions would get past for the MOT test.

But the Electronics are a complete black hole to me so I need to rely on others and their experise but the expense is high.

That said a contact through the GT40 club over here has said he has a friend who is a Range Rover mechanic and can do the diagnosis etc as he has the factory kit - perhaps an easier route as he is only 10 miles away and at that distance I'll drive the car there.

So with EFi -if you cannot do it yourself the cost may be too high for your budget.

Cheers
Ian

 

[Gary]

Check out Gordon Levy's shop. He builds a lot of engines for the factory five cars and even builds and races factory five cars. He has built motors for Hershal Byrd's RF40 as well as other 40's. Check out www.levyracing.com

 

[Dean Lampe]

I would find a local guy to do the engine. They will be there when you need hel, there for the first run in, there to tune and adjust, etc. etc..

The carbs are the way to go but get the webers. In my opinion they look much better than the injection or the 4 barrel. They are incredibly easy to work on and they run like hell! Some people will tell you that they are a lot of work but before you believe them, ask how much experience they have had with them.

 

[Jac Mac]

Chris,

The only advice I would give is decide on which transaxle you intend to use and obtain the flywheel/clutch assy reqd so that it can be balanced to suit the engine components you choose prior to engine assy. If there is one common area that has caused mechanical grief to forum members it is this one. Also a trial fit of the transaxle to motor before you go anywhere near your engine builder will probably find a few clearance issues that can be solved easily and save rework on your good engine.

Jac Mac

 

[Chris Kouba]

Thanks for the suggestions and comments so far. I haven't talked to Hersh since I first moved to town in April- I keep meaning to give him a call. And thanks for the suggestion of Levy Racing, I rode in Hersh's car and it seemed strong enough for me for now.

I am still inclined to start with a single 4 bbl and get on the road. I like simple and it sounds like that should live up to its expectations. Now if I could just get a full budget to get things started...

Please keep further comments coming as I am always picking up on new things here which is part of the reason I keep coming back.

Chris

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi Chris -

Carbs - KISS - 'Keep It Simple Stupid' - as others say, stick a carb on it and you'll have a relatively simple solution that is generally simple to maintain.

EFI - will generally cost more, requires careful planning of fuel system in way of lifter pump(s),fuel returns, swirl pot etc etc, BUT, once configured correctly. It will give reliable, trouble-free motoring. The motor should 'start on the button', hot or cold, give good fuel consumption figures, be more drivable in traffic, especially if a radical cam has been fitted and be easily tweeked to allow for ANY performance modifications that might be fitted at a later stage.

So for me, it's EFi - even if Andrew Fordyce did keep reminding me at Longleat Hill Climb when Daves R42 would'nt run, that "the points were still set ok on his Jag" - (yeah - very funny!)....

ps - Ian - I'm still happy to look at your 40 if John's local Rover contact is not available. However, with the correct mfr equipment, he should stand a better chance than most of sorting the problem - fingers crossed!

 

[Ron Earp]

The second question... Carb vs. EFI: I like the concept of simple. The carb appeals to me for this reason- a mechanical pump, a single 4 bbl, slap on the manifold and drive. I caught the post of Dan's and Ron's carb builder and it sounds like that'd be money well spent. Conversely, the concept of EFI is very appealing for its drivability and superior performance (at least perceived). Would a simple carb really be as simple as I think (someone wanna rain on my parade?) or would the install and higher buy-in be worth it for the EFI? I was thinking something along the lines of THIS for a system (as much as I'd like 8 little stacks in the mirror, I feel cost might be a little prohibitive for me).

You already know how I vote on this one!

But, before you go Edelbrock, check this one out:

http://www.mass-floefi.com/

This one is interesting because it is a mass air flow system - not a mapped system like Edelbrock and 99% (I think all actually) of the 8bbl systems that use a couple of sensors (MAP, throttle position) to look up an injection value from a table.

I don't know a lot about that particular system. I do know that MAF systems are nice and easy to work with and extremely adaptable provided your MAF sensor is large enough and the transfer funciton doesn't get maxed out. Looks like what they've done is taken the basic Edelbrock setup and slapped a MAF meter on the top of the throttle body thus producing a pretty nifty solution.

Ron

 

[Garrett Clark]

Chris,

My car isn't here yet, but here is what I've decided:

1) I went with a 'local guy' to build the engine. I'm not that familiar with Fords, and this guy has been building Ford engines since before I was born. He's full of advice, and he's a character. The engine build has been a fun learning experience for me. I know what is in the engine and why. He'll also be around for the initial startup and tuning, which I expect will be a good thing.

2) I've taken the unusual route of EFI with a 4bbl-style throttle body. It took me many months of internal debate because I REALLY don't like the look of the 4bbl. But I've raced several 4 cylinder several cars over the years and converted one from EFI to DCOE40's in search of power. At the track, the webbers always needed care and feeding, while the EFI just worked. My current car is injected and will stay that way. I ended up doing the 4bbl throttle body for purely functional reasons--I'll have a moderate cam that might confuse MAP sensors in an individual throttle body manifold, and (use the search function here) there was an old discussion about air flow limitations with webbers that would also apply to ITB's.

So that is what I've decided and why I made the choices. We'll see if things work out OK. I'll report back on the forum when I have actual data. Hopefully it won't be too awful long because this month is the 2-year anniversary of my ERA deposit!

Garrett

PS - Ron, my Toyota race car uses a MAF system, by SCCA rule. I just hate that big restriction in front of my intake manifold. I'm not sure how much power it really costs me, but as the Spec Miata that you just passed in the twisties just barely powers back by you on the straight, you start to think about the little things!

 

[Hammer]

has anyone ever considered a mechanical feul injection?

 

[Ron Earp]

PS - Ron, my Toyota race car uses a MAF system, by SCCA rule. I just hate that big restriction in front of my intake manifold. I'm not sure how much power it really costs me, but as the Spec Miata that you just passed in the twisties just barely powers back by you on the straight, you start to think about the little things!

MAF systems are no issue as long as your MAF meter is larger than your throttle body. It isn't costing you anything unless it is tiny, like some of the 50mm MAFs on the Ford 5L installation in the Cougar/Tbirds. I picked up like 20 rwhp when I got rid of that - I'd put heads, intake, exhaust, on the car and it got faster but I ignored the MAF. Got rid of the stock MAF and it helped!

Unfortunately, the "Spec Miata" might be putting more power to the pavement than you are if it is a top build. There are some (and Spec definitely isn't spec) making 125-127 rear wheel hp on a dynojet. The ones we've built are around 108-119 (1.6/1.8), but we're 100% legal. Not saying those guys aren't 100% legal, just that we definitely are legal.

Spec Miatas are really taking over in the SCCA. In ITS a IT Miata (different trim from Sepc Miata if you don't know) just set a new class record at Roebling, and won the championship. Ditto in ITA. They are strong at CMP, and while they can't win at VIR, they do well there too with a couple of top running Spec Miatas making some 2:18s!!!!!!! So much development and so many of these cars in the SCCA (over 1500 with log books now I think) means that they get fast for 100hp cars.

 

[Sandy]

Like Hilborn constant flow style or Lucas timed (others)?

Sandy

 

[Hammer]

not sure how the hillborn is set up, but I was thinking a timed setup, kinda like a diesel is, I guess U could say, just w/o the INSANE fuel pressures

 

[Sammie]

I would find a local guy to do the engine. They will be there when you need hel, there for the first run in, there to tune and adjust, etc. etc..

The carbs are the way to go but get the webers. In my opinion they look much better than the injection or the 4 barrel. They are incredibly easy to work on and they run like hell! Some people will tell you that they are a lot of work but before you believe them, ask how much experience they have had with them.

All mechanical things have their own idiosyncracies, I agree,therefore, a local builder would be preferrable, rather than shipping a crate engine or parts overseas.

 

[Garrett Clark]

Hammer,

I considered mechanical FI. There is some good infomation at kinsler.com about the relative merits of several different types of injection (as well as an interesting EFI computer comparison.) I have no first hand experience with it, but it sounded like the mechanical systems would be hard to tune for good "around town" manners. But they look really cool!

The typical mechanical FI systems are not like the direct injection used in compression ignition engines (diesels). The gasoline systems have a spray nozzle like a fuel injector, but the flow to the nozzle is controlled mechanically--no computers. Diesels inject fuel directly into the combustion chamber. Some newer gasoline engines do have direct injection--I think some of the new turbos from VW/Audi as well as Mazda.

Continuing to hijack the thread...the MAF sensor on my Toyota is the swinging door type with a flapper that closes off the intake path and is held shut by a weak spring. As air flows in to the engine, it pushes the door open against the spring. Travel is correlated with airflow so the computer can figure out how much fuel to provide. This door certainly causes a pressure drop in the intake path, reducing air flow to the engine. I don't know how much, but it does cost me power. It's all moot, though, because I can't change it by rule, and I'm not going to break the rules to "win" a $5 trophy.

Sounds like you have some scary-fast Miatas around there. They haven't crept too far in to the IT classes up here in the northwest. My GT-S is a really fun car to drive, but isn't really competitive in ITA--last weekend I was 6th out of 21 in class. But it's still fast enough to have a lot of fun racing without spending too much money.

Garrett

 

[Hammer]

The MAS in your yota is called a Vane Air Sensor, they are found on a good handful of other cars. and yes I know ALL about diesels......from school....and no a SI engine's Mech. FI would have to be completely different from a CI engines FI, but one of these days I will set up a motor for Mech FI, I think it would be really cool, and fun to try it out!

 

[Ron Earp]

H

Continuing to hijack the thread...the MAF sensor on my Toyota is the swinging door type with a flapper that closes off the intake path and is held shut by a weak spring. As air flows in to the engine, it pushes the door open against the spring. Travel is correlated with airflow so the computer can figure out how much fuel to provide.

This is not the hot wire MAF type system that I was referring to in discussion on "modern" MAF system. The type you have is the same type in the Miatas. It uses the voltage value from the vane to give an idea of air flow, then corrects with temperature from a temp sensor, just as you describe.

You can tune these easily on the dyno by opening the box and using the rachet/claw, setting to adjust the output at WOT to properly get the mixture right. I got 6 rwhp on one of the Miatas by doing this procedure because the stock setting is WAY too rich at WOT, like 10.2 to 1!!! Got over 4 rwhp on another. This is now legal in SM and I wouldn't think illegal in IT, so if you need some help on it email me. We'd adjust it, run with the wide band, and adjust again.

Anyhow, as you probably know the hot wire type MAF system, in use by probably 99.9% of all new cars, is the way to go and very accurate. That one system I posted eariler is the only aftermarket injection system I've seen that uses a hot wire MAF, and not MAP sensors etc.

Ron

 

[Sandy]

not sure how the hillborn is set up, but I was thinking a timed setup, kinda like a diesel is, I guess U could say, just w/o the INSANE fuel pressures

I don't know much of the mech-timed except for the Lucas sytems (might be other). But they are complicated in their own right. Lots of plumbing, pumps, blahh. You might be able to see it on Kinslers site. Very expensive as I recall and not compact as you need to do mech pumps and fuel distributor. Did have a nice look for older cars. The hilborn style is constant flow and works really well at WOT, but harder to tune in between. The EFI approach on stacks is the better way to go (IMHO) plenty of computers from simple to complex can run open or closed loop, and still has the cool factor. You can get some nice wet style manifold now off the shelf with injector bosses standard and it is actually a pretty good way to go as well, just doesn't look as cool as the stacks .

I think most all of the truck (as in pick up range) are likely all EFI now. I had an old IH Scout that had a UD (Nissan) Diesel and it had the Mech injection but I think those things have to be long gone on most diesels just do to economy and emissions we now face.

Sandy