Pantera to GT 40
- Thread starter Veek
- Start date
John Stone has done just that but I think it is more invloved that adiing a "kit" form what I remember he had to shorten the chassis five inches.
I am sure he will reply to this post soon enough with all the details.
I am sure he will reply to this post soon enough with all the details.
HI all,
I just logged on and saw this post. Deja Vu I guess because the 2 fabricators just picked up the Pantera frame today are in the process of fitting the GT40 body to it. I just got off the phone with them and they said we might not have to make any cutting. We'll know better in a few days when then body gets fitted to the frame (that's being built). I'll post again at that time the details.
Veek...go for it!
Have fun!
John
I just logged on and saw this post. Deja Vu I guess because the 2 fabricators just picked up the Pantera frame today are in the process of fitting the GT40 body to it. I just got off the phone with them and they said we might not have to make any cutting. We'll know better in a few days when then body gets fitted to the frame (that's being built). I'll post again at that time the details.
Veek...go for it!
Have fun!
John
Sbarro in Switerland also did this some years ago. I think there are a surprising number of changes needed to make a GT40 body go on a Pantera. It would be interesting to see an overlay of the "hard points" of the two cars compared.
I would suspect that the Pantera will reqire a considerable amount of chassis reinforcement to morph into a '40.
Rick /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I would suspect that the Pantera will reqire a considerable amount of chassis reinforcement to morph into a '40.
Rick /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Rick,
Your guess is correct about the reinforcement. I don't know if you have my GT40 cd but, if you did, you would see all the cutting that I had to do to make the Pantera chassi accept the body. Time-wise, it wasn't bad (a couple of days) but it did require a lot of metal to be removed.
I remember reading about Sbarro having to do the same because the ending chassi had too much flex.
Have fun!
John
Your guess is correct about the reinforcement. I don't know if you have my GT40 cd but, if you did, you would see all the cutting that I had to do to make the Pantera chassi accept the body. Time-wise, it wasn't bad (a couple of days) but it did require a lot of metal to be removed.
I remember reading about Sbarro having to do the same because the ending chassi had too much flex.
Have fun!
John
Veek,
No disassembly required of the frame. I only had to cut off all unnecessary portions and left the suspension (etc.) alone. It was actually quite easy. I would set the front and rear clips onto the Pantera frame, see how much more had to be cut, and then removed the clips to do the cutting. I repeated the process until the clips fit. The ride height and lining up of the body parts will come later.
All in all, it wasn't very intimidating at all. I'll get to use the entire mid-engine setup which makes my task easy overall. Bear in mind though that this is 1974 technology and I wouldn't think to compare that to the modern frames being created by the current GT40 manufacturers. There's almost 30 years of advancement there, but the Pantera frame will suit me fine for what I want.
If you can find a Pantera frame, I'd say 'Go for it'. I located mine through a POCA (Pantera Owners Club of America) newsletter that someone gave me. I paid $2000 for the frame and $400 for the heating/air conditioning system. I even got the half-shafts and long shift linkage with it. But best of all is the fact that everything is already together and will work.
Those cutting measurements that Fran mentioned (about 5") is a preliminary guess. We might not have to cut at all which would give extra leg space.
Have fun!
John
No disassembly required of the frame. I only had to cut off all unnecessary portions and left the suspension (etc.) alone. It was actually quite easy. I would set the front and rear clips onto the Pantera frame, see how much more had to be cut, and then removed the clips to do the cutting. I repeated the process until the clips fit. The ride height and lining up of the body parts will come later.
All in all, it wasn't very intimidating at all. I'll get to use the entire mid-engine setup which makes my task easy overall. Bear in mind though that this is 1974 technology and I wouldn't think to compare that to the modern frames being created by the current GT40 manufacturers. There's almost 30 years of advancement there, but the Pantera frame will suit me fine for what I want.
If you can find a Pantera frame, I'd say 'Go for it'. I located mine through a POCA (Pantera Owners Club of America) newsletter that someone gave me. I paid $2000 for the frame and $400 for the heating/air conditioning system. I even got the half-shafts and long shift linkage with it. But best of all is the fact that everything is already together and will work.
Those cutting measurements that Fran mentioned (about 5") is a preliminary guess. We might not have to cut at all which would give extra leg space.
Have fun!
John
I would be surprised if a de Tomaso Pantera body would make a very good base for a GT40. The Pantera is of a monocoque body design and there isn’t any frame like you would find on a normal car. The only body parts that unbolt are the two doors, the front hood and the back hatch. All of the other parts, e.g. the fenders and the top of the car are an integral welded together part of the body. If the top of the car or the fenders are removed the car will lose its rigidity and be a twisty mess. I think it would be very difficult to add the rigidity back in within the confines of the GT40 body. To learn more about the Pantera stop by http://www.panteraplace.com/
Attachments
Mike,
Actually the Pantera is turning out easier to modify than I first thought. The body/frame was cut/trimmed to the edges of the "necessary" areas until the body would fit. The jury is still out as to any shortening for the wheelbase. As for the rigidity, yes, it has to be built up, but this is not that difficult. If you build a roll cage for it then the stiffening will sufficiently occur. There are other tricks that can be utilized such as poly bushings in place of rubber.
Overall, I'm satisfied with what I'll end up with. It's for the street and will not be taking on any RF's at the track.
One thing to note about using the Pantera is that, when you open a rear clip of a GT40, you'll notice that the rear area is pretty much open. You'll lose some of that 'openness' (is that a word?) because the Pantera has walls on both sides of the engine. This might detract from the original look.
Oh yeah...WELCOME to the forum.
Have fun!
John
Actually the Pantera is turning out easier to modify than I first thought. The body/frame was cut/trimmed to the edges of the "necessary" areas until the body would fit. The jury is still out as to any shortening for the wheelbase. As for the rigidity, yes, it has to be built up, but this is not that difficult. If you build a roll cage for it then the stiffening will sufficiently occur. There are other tricks that can be utilized such as poly bushings in place of rubber.
Overall, I'm satisfied with what I'll end up with. It's for the street and will not be taking on any RF's at the track.
One thing to note about using the Pantera is that, when you open a rear clip of a GT40, you'll notice that the rear area is pretty much open. You'll lose some of that 'openness' (is that a word?) because the Pantera has walls on both sides of the engine. This might detract from the original look.
Oh yeah...WELCOME to the forum.
Have fun!
John
John,
I’m not a kit car builder so I might be missing the idea behind adapting the body to the GT40. I’m having trouble understanding how you adapt a full monocoque body to the GT40 that I think was monocoque in the main part of the body (with the wide fuel cell areas on the sides) and the tubular type construction behind the fire wall. It doesn’t seem like it would all fit together and look like a GT40.
The following are a few of the important measurement points between the two cars.
GT40 Wheelbase 95in. Pantera 98.5in.
GT40 Track Front 55in. Pantera 57in.
GT40 Track Rear 55in. Pantera 58in.
Looks like you will need to shorten it somewhere by 3.5”. You didn’t say if you were going to use the suspension so the track might not be a problem. Also the ride height is not the same on both cars so you my have some suspension geometry problems as you lower the body down on the suspension. One of the cool things about the GT40 is its weight at only 2000lb. The Panteras were about 3300lb in the later years and 2850lb in the early years. The parts you are using are the heavy monocoque parts. I’d like to see some photos of the project if you could share them.
Obviously you have already started on this project so I don’t want to sound negative about your endeavors, but I thought someone made all the parts you need to build a GT40 kit and you just bolt it together? How much do the kit parts cost to make it look like a GT40. When I meet kit car builders they are always taking about how correct their kit is compared to the replicated car. Isn’t the idea to have a GT40 that looks like the original inside and out?
Just some food for thought!
I’m not a kit car builder so I might be missing the idea behind adapting the body to the GT40. I’m having trouble understanding how you adapt a full monocoque body to the GT40 that I think was monocoque in the main part of the body (with the wide fuel cell areas on the sides) and the tubular type construction behind the fire wall. It doesn’t seem like it would all fit together and look like a GT40.
The following are a few of the important measurement points between the two cars.
GT40 Wheelbase 95in. Pantera 98.5in.
GT40 Track Front 55in. Pantera 57in.
GT40 Track Rear 55in. Pantera 58in.
Looks like you will need to shorten it somewhere by 3.5”. You didn’t say if you were going to use the suspension so the track might not be a problem. Also the ride height is not the same on both cars so you my have some suspension geometry problems as you lower the body down on the suspension. One of the cool things about the GT40 is its weight at only 2000lb. The Panteras were about 3300lb in the later years and 2850lb in the early years. The parts you are using are the heavy monocoque parts. I’d like to see some photos of the project if you could share them.
Obviously you have already started on this project so I don’t want to sound negative about your endeavors, but I thought someone made all the parts you need to build a GT40 kit and you just bolt it together? How much do the kit parts cost to make it look like a GT40. When I meet kit car builders they are always taking about how correct their kit is compared to the replicated car. Isn’t the idea to have a GT40 that looks like the original inside and out?
Just some food for thought!
Everyone has there own interpreation of what they want when building a custom car/replica.
It is hard to describe the GT40 as a kit because there are always parts to find and modify and I would describe a kit as complete...rarely so with these cars!!
Financial resource is another area that may come into play when building a replica/kit car also.
What we all have is a facsimile of the real car and no two "real "GT40'S were ever exactly the same and I am sure no two GT40 replicas are either.
We all differ in what we want our cars to do be and do and I think we should applaud anyone that wants to buld a GT40 replica and is willing to push the envelope .
Go for it John!!!!
It is hard to describe the GT40 as a kit because there are always parts to find and modify and I would describe a kit as complete...rarely so with these cars!!
Financial resource is another area that may come into play when building a replica/kit car also.
What we all have is a facsimile of the real car and no two "real "GT40'S were ever exactly the same and I am sure no two GT40 replicas are either.
We all differ in what we want our cars to do be and do and I think we should applaud anyone that wants to buld a GT40 replica and is willing to push the envelope .
Go for it John!!!!
I agree with Fran,,,
Call em Replica, Call em Kit,,,these cars are "CUSTOM CARS".
The idea is to do what you like,,,hell I like to have a boom box in my GT /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Unfortunatly the car is very similar to the original,,which means no room for the bass speaker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Next time I will do a Fiero rebody GT40 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Call em Replica, Call em Kit,,,these cars are "CUSTOM CARS".
The idea is to do what you like,,,hell I like to have a boom box in my GT /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Unfortunatly the car is very similar to the original,,which means no room for the bass speaker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Next time I will do a Fiero rebody GT40 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Howard Jones
Supporter
Mike. Wow! Just bolt it together? Fran I couldn't have said it better. He needs to see all the work one of these "collection of materials cars" are. I will never use the K word when discussing my car. Mike please don't take this wrong. I'm sure some of the newer cars are much better now. But if you read a lot of this forum I'm sure you will come away with the fact that most of the complete cars here required a lot more than slot a into slot b. Mine has taken 4 years and I have never put it down for more than a week or two. I still think I have about 6 mos of body prep left to go before paint. Then on to phase 2, rosejointed suspendsion and wilwoods all around. I guess they are never really done.
Het Faili,
will you PLEASE send me your address...I have something for you!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
send me a P.M. or something.
thanks
will you PLEASE send me your address...I have something for you!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
send me a P.M. or something.
thanks
Fran,
I sent you an e-mail with my address last week /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Oh well, I have to bring on Litigation now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Fran, you have mail,,,,,please reply so I know you got it
I sent you an e-mail with my address last week /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Oh well, I have to bring on Litigation now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Fran, you have mail,,,,,please reply so I know you got it
Mike,
Thanks again for the post about this. I'll try to answer some of your questions. I apologize for it being lengthy.
The Pantera seemed to be more of a unibody than a genuine monocoque. But putting that aside, the frame/chassi will be stiffend sufficiently when the roll cage is built. I'll be using lightweight tubing just as those used on drag racers (just go to the drags and you'll see examples of that).
I know that the wheelbase on the Pantera is slightly longer than the GT40. The reason the 'jury is still out' for any cutting is that the fabricator of the frame feels that the difference can be made up by adding it to the rear clip. A longer wheelbase is usually desired as is the extra 3-4" of leg-room. Remember that this car is for me and not for mass production. I just have to decide if I want it shortened to 95" or not.
The front and rear tracks are fine as-is. The body fits very well over the wheel areas and has capability for larger tires in the rear (i.e., # 1075). I'll use the knock-off lookalikes.
Ride height will be adjusted by the frame being built to connect the body to the chassi. There's a post on ground clearance that has other's measurements.
As for the weight, mine is an earlier 1974 model and I'm going to go the route of Mark Clapp. He uses a dependable 302 that is lighter weight than the Pantera's 351 Cleveland (although I love the 351 Cleveland) hooked to a 016. Mark also has used his GT40 for several years with no real problems. He's been very helpful to me. The Pantera used a heavier ZF whereas I'll be using the 016. The fiberglass body will also be less weight than the all-metal one cut off. I'll have to wait for the outcome on the truck scales.
As for the costs...I'm going to be open about something personal. My wife and I have 8 children and my annual income is less than $40K. I can't afford to build a GT40 at all. Yet, my heart and excitement for the GT40 is so great that I can't stand the idea of not having one. I'm sure that I represent many on this wonderful forum that can't afford one but still want one. I had to really plan this out and it has taken me several years just to get the body parts and the frame. My total costs will be around $11-12K when finished. Many may be skeptical with that figure but that's actual.
What will it be in the end? The body parts I'm using are very accurate to the outside shell of the GT40. This means that, when I drive down the road, people will see an accurate picture of a GT40 (possibly plus 3" in the middle).
As for the underneath chassi and suspension, it won't be the neat setup that the originals had. I'm not concerned with that. I go for performance (at a street level) with the outward appearance that pleases me. I don't know who uses the original suspension for their builds but my hat goes off to them because it is pretty cool. Many use wrecking yard parts and I have nothing against that if that is what they can afford.
The bottom-line of all of this is that I want my own GT40 and this is the only way I can afford one. I promise you that it will look like an original outside and inside when finished, except for some few things. I want to use the Mazda mirrors like Hersh did on his awesome looking car. I also plan to put in creature comforts (cd player and even a tiny hidden TV - not kidding!). I want to have fun with this and let others enjoy it too.
I hope this answers your questions. There are those on this forum with super technical minds that could answer you much better than I could.
Have fun! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
John
Thanks again for the post about this. I'll try to answer some of your questions. I apologize for it being lengthy.
The Pantera seemed to be more of a unibody than a genuine monocoque. But putting that aside, the frame/chassi will be stiffend sufficiently when the roll cage is built. I'll be using lightweight tubing just as those used on drag racers (just go to the drags and you'll see examples of that).
I know that the wheelbase on the Pantera is slightly longer than the GT40. The reason the 'jury is still out' for any cutting is that the fabricator of the frame feels that the difference can be made up by adding it to the rear clip. A longer wheelbase is usually desired as is the extra 3-4" of leg-room. Remember that this car is for me and not for mass production. I just have to decide if I want it shortened to 95" or not.
The front and rear tracks are fine as-is. The body fits very well over the wheel areas and has capability for larger tires in the rear (i.e., # 1075). I'll use the knock-off lookalikes.
Ride height will be adjusted by the frame being built to connect the body to the chassi. There's a post on ground clearance that has other's measurements.
As for the weight, mine is an earlier 1974 model and I'm going to go the route of Mark Clapp. He uses a dependable 302 that is lighter weight than the Pantera's 351 Cleveland (although I love the 351 Cleveland) hooked to a 016. Mark also has used his GT40 for several years with no real problems. He's been very helpful to me. The Pantera used a heavier ZF whereas I'll be using the 016. The fiberglass body will also be less weight than the all-metal one cut off. I'll have to wait for the outcome on the truck scales.
As for the costs...I'm going to be open about something personal. My wife and I have 8 children and my annual income is less than $40K. I can't afford to build a GT40 at all. Yet, my heart and excitement for the GT40 is so great that I can't stand the idea of not having one. I'm sure that I represent many on this wonderful forum that can't afford one but still want one. I had to really plan this out and it has taken me several years just to get the body parts and the frame. My total costs will be around $11-12K when finished. Many may be skeptical with that figure but that's actual.
What will it be in the end? The body parts I'm using are very accurate to the outside shell of the GT40. This means that, when I drive down the road, people will see an accurate picture of a GT40 (possibly plus 3" in the middle).
As for the underneath chassi and suspension, it won't be the neat setup that the originals had. I'm not concerned with that. I go for performance (at a street level) with the outward appearance that pleases me. I don't know who uses the original suspension for their builds but my hat goes off to them because it is pretty cool. Many use wrecking yard parts and I have nothing against that if that is what they can afford.
The bottom-line of all of this is that I want my own GT40 and this is the only way I can afford one. I promise you that it will look like an original outside and inside when finished, except for some few things. I want to use the Mazda mirrors like Hersh did on his awesome looking car. I also plan to put in creature comforts (cd player and even a tiny hidden TV - not kidding!). I want to have fun with this and let others enjoy it too.
I hope this answers your questions. There are those on this forum with super technical minds that could answer you much better than I could.
Have fun! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
John
Pat
Supporter
John,
As I see it you will have a couple of big positives when you're done. Your parts can be acquired at a Lincoln Mercury dealer, the AC & electrics will be complete and with a roll cage you will have acceptable stiffness for all but competition level driving. Best of all you'll be in under $20K and if your fit an finish are good, you can double or triple your investment once you decide to move on to something else. I think you are embarking on a solid plan.
Good luck!
Veek
As I see it you will have a couple of big positives when you're done. Your parts can be acquired at a Lincoln Mercury dealer, the AC & electrics will be complete and with a roll cage you will have acceptable stiffness for all but competition level driving. Best of all you'll be in under $20K and if your fit an finish are good, you can double or triple your investment once you decide to move on to something else. I think you are embarking on a solid plan.
Good luck!
Veek
Mark, Eric, Veek, Fran,
Thanks for your emails and/or posts. You guys are inspiring to me and I appreciate that. It's great to have a community that works for helping each other.
I spoke with the guy who's readying my GT40 body and his goal is to have it back (attached to the Pantera frame) by mid-september. I still have to take the roll cage to him.
Thanks again guys for all of your encouragement.
Have fun!
John
Thanks for your emails and/or posts. You guys are inspiring to me and I appreciate that. It's great to have a community that works for helping each other.
I spoke with the guy who's readying my GT40 body and his goal is to have it back (attached to the Pantera frame) by mid-september. I still have to take the roll cage to him.
Thanks again guys for all of your encouragement.
Have fun!
John
