sorry really thick question but what does SBF stand for or what is it???
cheers
cheers
sbf??????
- Thread starter monkeyboy
- Start date
is a windsor 351 classed as a small bloke ford
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
:wrongforum:
I've moved this to the right forum.
Lynn
I've moved this to the right forum.
Lynn
That's a good move.
I suppose if you don't know what something is, it's a bit difficult to know which forum to post it in initially!
Cheers
I suppose if you don't know what something is, it's a bit difficult to know which forum to post it in initially!
Cheers
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
To be a little more complete (and some of the more "into it" Ford guys will surely fill in the holes I have left; I haven't even mentioned Flat Heads [do a search as the have been discussed elsewhere]):
Windsor Blocks (SBF)
8.2" Deck Height
8.7" Deck Height (after market)
9.2" Deck Height
9.5" Deck Height
Deck Height = Distance from crank shaft center line to top of cylinder deck
Cleveland Blocks (SBF)
9.2" Deck Height
9.5" Deck Height
I am not a Cleveland guy so I am not positive about this
(Don't worry, someone will correct me if I am wrong ;-)
Cleveland M (BBF) 360, 390, ??
Big Block Ford (BBF) 427, 428, 429
I am not a BBF guy either.
You can't go stricktly by the cubic inches, for instance, the Roush 427c.i. is Windsor SBF 9.5" that is bored and stroked.
Windsor Blocks (SBF)
8.2" Deck Height
8.7" Deck Height (after market)
9.2" Deck Height
9.5" Deck Height
Deck Height = Distance from crank shaft center line to top of cylinder deck
Cleveland Blocks (SBF)
9.2" Deck Height
9.5" Deck Height
I am not a Cleveland guy so I am not positive about this
(Don't worry, someone will correct me if I am wrong ;-)
Cleveland M (BBF) 360, 390, ??
Big Block Ford (BBF) 427, 428, 429
I am not a BBF guy either.
You can't go stricktly by the cubic inches, for instance, the Roush 427c.i. is Windsor SBF 9.5" that is bored and stroked.
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The 351 Cleveland was considered a "335" series motor--I don't think it was made in more than one deck height, but I can't remember right now if it was 9.2" or 9.5". Sorry! I've always heard of the 351-C as being referred to as a small block, perhaps b/c it shares the same bellhousing pattern as a 302/351 Windsor.
The "Cleveland M" noted above is probably the 351-M and 400-M. These motors used canted valve type (351 Cleveland) heads, but b/c of the increased deck height had larger intake manifolds. At first they may have used a bellhousing pattern that was similar to the SBF/Cleveland (??not sure, here--help us out, guys), but if so pretty quickly they were changed to a different bellhousing pattern--again, I'm not sure but I think it matched the 385 series motors. Perhaps Lynn was including these motors in the different deck height 351 Clevelands mention above. I guess they would be a "335" series motor, but don't share much other than the cylinder heads, front cover, valve covers and perhaps the oil pan with the 351 Cleveland (Geez--now that I read that I guess they share quite a bit with the 351-C).
Then, there's the whole 429-460 CID "385" series of Ford motors--big blocks for sure. They use canted valve heads similar to the 351-C and the 351/400-M motors, but not interchangable due to size differences.
If I'm not mistaken, the 360 and 390 are FE motors and would fall into the BBF category. FE's also came in 332 and 352 CID's and for some reason I think there were 361 CID and 391 CID variations ( and a 410 CID???), but weren't those truck motors (or maybe specifically Edsel motors???).
To make things even worse, Ford actually produced a "Clevor" for a few years in the late 60's and early 70's--they put Cleveland cyllinder heads on a really nice 8.2" Windsor-style SBF block and called it a "Boss 302"--it was Ford's entry into Trans-Am racing. Don't confuse that one with the new series of "Boss" motors recently released by Ford--those motors have Windsor heads. There are aftermarket manufacturers who still produce these hybrid motors and do very well in the PHR Engine Master competitions.
Lots to muddy up the waters here, isn't there?
Doug
The "Cleveland M" noted above is probably the 351-M and 400-M. These motors used canted valve type (351 Cleveland) heads, but b/c of the increased deck height had larger intake manifolds. At first they may have used a bellhousing pattern that was similar to the SBF/Cleveland (??not sure, here--help us out, guys), but if so pretty quickly they were changed to a different bellhousing pattern--again, I'm not sure but I think it matched the 385 series motors. Perhaps Lynn was including these motors in the different deck height 351 Clevelands mention above. I guess they would be a "335" series motor, but don't share much other than the cylinder heads, front cover, valve covers and perhaps the oil pan with the 351 Cleveland (Geez--now that I read that I guess they share quite a bit with the 351-C).
Then, there's the whole 429-460 CID "385" series of Ford motors--big blocks for sure. They use canted valve heads similar to the 351-C and the 351/400-M motors, but not interchangable due to size differences.
If I'm not mistaken, the 360 and 390 are FE motors and would fall into the BBF category. FE's also came in 332 and 352 CID's and for some reason I think there were 361 CID and 391 CID variations ( and a 410 CID???), but weren't those truck motors (or maybe specifically Edsel motors???).
To make things even worse, Ford actually produced a "Clevor" for a few years in the late 60's and early 70's--they put Cleveland cyllinder heads on a really nice 8.2" Windsor-style SBF block and called it a "Boss 302"--it was Ford's entry into Trans-Am racing. Don't confuse that one with the new series of "Boss" motors recently released by Ford--those motors have Windsor heads. There are aftermarket manufacturers who still produce these hybrid motors and do very well in the PHR Engine Master competitions.
Lots to muddy up the waters here, isn't there?
Doug
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Deck Heights- c/l crank to deck surface.
351 W- 9.500 small block 6 Bolt Bell housing pattern
351 C - 9.200 '' ''
351 M -10.300 Same as 429/460 (385 series)Bell Housing.
400 C -10.300 '' ''
These can vary by around 0.020" greater in some years of manufacture for lower comp ratio's etc.
361/391 Fe were truck, 410 is 390 Bore(4.05") with 428 crank(3.98")
Some Edsel/T-Bird were 430 ci with deck of block @ approx 105deg angle to bore & flat head, real oddball , had bore spacing of later 429/460(385). Found that out when I had to do a 59 T/Bird that had ruined a crank. Lot easier to find 429/460 cranks in this part of the world. Line bore and mod a couple of other things and away it went!
Jac Mac
351 W- 9.500 small block 6 Bolt Bell housing pattern
351 C - 9.200 '' ''
351 M -10.300 Same as 429/460 (385 series)Bell Housing.
400 C -10.300 '' ''
These can vary by around 0.020" greater in some years of manufacture for lower comp ratio's etc.
361/391 Fe were truck, 410 is 390 Bore(4.05") with 428 crank(3.98")
Some Edsel/T-Bird were 430 ci with deck of block @ approx 105deg angle to bore & flat head, real oddball , had bore spacing of later 429/460(385). Found that out when I had to do a 59 T/Bird that had ruined a crank. Lot easier to find 429/460 cranks in this part of the world. Line bore and mod a couple of other things and away it went!
Jac Mac
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Since school on this subject is still in session, can someone tell me what 'FE' stands for with respect to the big block Ford engines?
Thanks!
Thanks!
kepetersen said:
In all my reading I have never seen a definite explanation of this. In a chapter on the FE in a Ford Publication of that era it states that the 'Truck' versions of these are known as the 'FT" family, but no explanation of FE other than it being the symbol for Iron which they have plenty of..
As an extra bit of useless info I have just had a 279" Lincoln dropped in my shop ( Looks like a 125% scale 272/292/312 Y- Block ) Dunno what we will do with it, Rat Rod or early T-Bird Replica have been suggested.
Jac Mac
Howard Jones
Supporter
Farm engine.
kepetersen said:
It's my understanding that it stood for "Ford Edsel".
The Edsel (a somewhat ungainly Ford luxury product from the 50's) has gained somewhat of a cult following in the U.S. The front grill looks for all the world like a yoke for oxen. The name Edsel was reported to be chosen by Henry Ford to honor his only son, Edsel Ford. For some reason I remember reading somewhere that the FE engine was designed specifically for the Edsel, but it made it's way into the regular Ford line in 1958, I think.
Here's one, a rare convertible: http://jpc33.free.fr/patrim/i/Ford Edsel.jpg
For those who may be interested, here's a brief article on the history of the Edsel, but it doesn't mention the FE engine: Automotive World Magazine - The Gateway: Edsel World. For some reason the link only takes you to the index--go down to #16 from the top.
Of course, all this "dribble" comes from some dark corner of my memory, so it's subject to high rates of error.
If anyone else has more reliable information, I'd be interested in hearing about it, too.
Doug
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