Is that on stock bottom end? And how long do they last when making that much power???
Superlite GTA
- Thread starter karlo
- Start date
Is that on stock bottom end? And how long do they last when making that much power???
Yeah that's on a completely stock bottom end. Not sure how long it will last at that high level of power but at my level 500hp it has been in my car for well over a year without any problems. My bottom end is completely stock. I only have a built head on it with ARP head studs.
Nice Setup...Looks like you've pretty much done everything other then messing with the bottom end (down to the calan CC) How is the driveability of the bc280's? Are you running speed density?
So are you planning to stick with T3 and GT35R for this build?
Nice setup. Can you post the details on your built head?
Yeah I have done all upgrades except for the bottom end so far. Driveability is good on the BC280's. I lose low end torque but gain it up top. Yes I am on speed density.
The current built head is ported and polish with a 5 angle valve job. Has Manley springs and retainers on stock valves.
This longblock will not be going the Apex when I start building it. I am building a Wiseco 10.5:1 HD e85 pistons on Howard I beam rods setup. Will also be switching to another built head with kiggly dual beehive springs and retainers with Kelford 280 cams instead. Hoping to max out the turbo and then switching to something bigger. Hoping to get at least 600-650 before I swap out my turbo.
Previous record holder (Mike R) raced his 4g63 from 40k-90k, over 10+ years, he stated out with ~350whp and went up to ~650whp. He has 400+ 1/4 mile passes on his short block. The only modifications are: balance shaft removal and ARP head studs. Though, he does have a built head with cams, spring and standard size, SST valves.
Wow that's pretty solid!! Built head won't affect the short block though and that's what really matters!
Do we know where the Superlite contingent will be at Charlotte?
Let me preface this by saying that I was very resistant to the idea of using the 4g63 at first. I have now gained a great respect for it and truly do look forward to using it in my Apex down the road.
That being said, why exactly do DSMs have such a bad rap when it comes to reliability? I know a lot of people cheap out on parts but is that all of it? If I do a complete yet simple 500hp rebuild/build on a 4g63, use all quality parts, and have someone who knows what they are doing tune it, can it be as reliable as a new LS3 or at least close?
That being said, why exactly do DSMs have such a bad rap when it comes to reliability? I know a lot of people cheap out on parts but is that all of it? If I do a complete yet simple 500hp rebuild/build on a 4g63, use all quality parts, and have someone who knows what they are doing tune it, can it be as reliable as a new LS3 or at least close?
Matt, I'm with you on this. Though, maybe not as hesitant as you.
After reading many, many pages of DSMtuners, and looking at Craig's Lists adds in almost all of the West US for Eclipses; here's why I think DSM have a bad rap: It's a ridiculously easy motor to gain significant amounts of horse power with nothing but bolt on components. And, it's a relatively simply engine design, i.e., it's easy to work on. This leads people (I'm going to say mostly the younger, more inexperienced crowd) to ATTEMPT to work on these motors themselves when they don't have the necessary knowledge. Then you get problems from mistakes that could easily be prevented by someone with some basic knowledge and skills. This translates into "unreliability" issues, which more accurately should be termed "stupidity" issues. (Aside from the well-known crank walk issue that is.)
A new LS3 is rated in the Vette at 436HP N/A. It can be pushed to 600+ pretty easily N/A, with bolt on stuff. So, will a turbo charged 4G63 that is running about twice it's stock HP be as reliable as a normally aspirated LS3 running at its stock HP? Well, to begin with, a turbo'd anything is not going to be as reliable as it's normally aspirated counter part. So, no, a 4g63 at 500 HP won't be as reliable as the LS3 at 436 HP, or even 600 HP for that matter. How can it be? But turbo an LS3 and run it at around 900 HP, then I think that's comparing apples to apples as far as reliability goes. I don't know which would be more reliable at that percentage of power increase, but the 4g63 seems to handle it well.
But, will a 4g63 be reliable at 500 HP? Yes, I believe so. But you need to take the necessary steps to get there. I've read many, many threads of guys running 30+psi boost pushing 500 HP or better for many hundreds of passes at the strip without much problem. The major issue doesn't seem to be the motor, but the tranny. This seems to be universal. For instance, a stock LS7 or LS9 is a little too much for the Porsche trannies used in the SLC. The LS4 (the other motor supported by Superlite for the Apex) tranny doesn't seem to hold up as well as the 4g63 trannies do at similar percentages of power increase.
There are at least a couple shops out there building stronger DSM trannies. As with anything stoutly built, you are going to have to pay for it. But at 500 HP, I think you're going to want to send a transmission to Jack's or Shepherd's to beef it up. That's what I'm planning on doing anyway.
The 4g63 seems to be very robust. And if it breaks, it won't cost a fortune to rebuild one. But, there is enough information out there to judge what you need to do to reliably to get the 500 HP you want.
I'm starting with this book: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/dp/1932494626/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=RLPA7WNRKZAD&coliid=I3NSI2PC0KA6C3]How to Build Max-Performance Mitsubishi 4G63t Engines (S-A Design) (Performance How-To): Robert Bowen: 9781932494624: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]
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I've been looking around on Craig's List for an Eclipse with a cherry interior and a serviceable shell and drive train. I saw a "wanted" add for a 1995-1999 Eclipse in the Texas area. I'm thinking there is at least one other guy out there getting ready.
Has anyone bought, or already have, their donor car yet? If so, what'd you get? And post a picture, please.
Has anyone bought, or already have, their donor car yet? If so, what'd you get? And post a picture, please.
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:chug:
When I first heard the Apex would use the 4g63, I thought I would never be able to fully understand that engine. As someone who is used to bolt on parts, it was more than a little intimidating learning the ins and outs of a turbo 4. After a lot of researching, I feel pretty comfortable with my understanding of it. I have my engine/tranny build figured out and just want to be able to enjoy my Apex (should I decide to build one) and not constantly have to fix it. I'm not worried by the transmission though. Just go with an overengineered and still incredibly cheap (relatively speaking) build by Jacks, TMZ, or Shep and you'll be good to go!
Don't bother with that book. I bought it and I've learned way more cruising the forums. It's very generic and the pics, diagrams, and explanations aren't much help.
Thanks for the heads up. :thumbsup:
There are many reasons why DSMs have a bad rep, some are deserving, while others are simple ignorance.
First, some real problems:
1. 4G63 is an interference engine with a tricky timing belt tensioning procedure. Many very experienced mechanics screw it up, usually because they rely on their “vast experience” and do not look up the proper procedure. This results in disproportional number of bent valves.
2. Center differential is weak, even stock power level engines can cause a failure during a hard launch. Fortunately, there is an easy, $300-$400 upgrade: 4 spider gear diff. This wouldn’t be an issue for Apex, as it isn’t AWD, but it gives the car bad press.
3. Crankwalk (crank thrust bearing failure). About 50% of 2G/7bolt motors eventually come down with the dreaded CW, best way to avoid it: use 1G/6bolt motor. If you are re-building, spend extra $100-$200 for 6 bolt core block/crank and be done with it.
4. Ridiculous amount of power! Because 4G63 can makes so much power, so easily, you end up with unbalanced cars: too much power for drivetrain, brakes, suspension and driver’s maturity. This is not a good combination, which results in broken or crashed cars.
Then, there perceived problems from “know it all” idiots, who hear the above examples and parrot bits and pieces of this information without truly understanding what is going it. All of these problems are relatively easy to overcome with proper information!
Some good facts about 4G63 motor:
1. It is very light (especially for an iron block motor from the 80’s)
2. It is extremely tough, 500-600whp on stock block/head, 600-800whp with basic engine mods.
3. It has very good aftermarket support
4. It is very inexpensive! (connected to #2 and #3)
5. It has EXCELLENT, inexpensive, easy to use tuning tool: ECM Link
First, some real problems:
1. 4G63 is an interference engine with a tricky timing belt tensioning procedure. Many very experienced mechanics screw it up, usually because they rely on their “vast experience” and do not look up the proper procedure. This results in disproportional number of bent valves.
2. Center differential is weak, even stock power level engines can cause a failure during a hard launch. Fortunately, there is an easy, $300-$400 upgrade: 4 spider gear diff. This wouldn’t be an issue for Apex, as it isn’t AWD, but it gives the car bad press.
3. Crankwalk (crank thrust bearing failure). About 50% of 2G/7bolt motors eventually come down with the dreaded CW, best way to avoid it: use 1G/6bolt motor. If you are re-building, spend extra $100-$200 for 6 bolt core block/crank and be done with it.
4. Ridiculous amount of power! Because 4G63 can makes so much power, so easily, you end up with unbalanced cars: too much power for drivetrain, brakes, suspension and driver’s maturity. This is not a good combination, which results in broken or crashed cars.
Then, there perceived problems from “know it all” idiots, who hear the above examples and parrot bits and pieces of this information without truly understanding what is going it. All of these problems are relatively easy to overcome with proper information!
Some good facts about 4G63 motor:
1. It is very light (especially for an iron block motor from the 80’s)
2. It is extremely tough, 500-600whp on stock block/head, 600-800whp with basic engine mods.
3. It has very good aftermarket support
4. It is very inexpensive! (connected to #2 and #3)
5. It has EXCELLENT, inexpensive, easy to use tuning tool: ECM Link
Fran,
Is there any new info? Also, I would like to come visit the facility in April if that is possible. Let me know.
Thanks,
Mr. Wolfe
Is there any new info? Also, I would like to come visit the facility in April if that is possible. Let me know.
Thanks,
Mr. Wolfe
Could really use an update right about now too. To schedule a shop visit, call and talk to Vicki. She'll take care of it.
Thanks for the information.
Yes, I am anxious for an update as well. I want to buy or build a car soon so as exciting as that is, it's tough to stay patient.
Mr. Wolfe
I'm needing an update too. I'm starting to wander...:shifty: I've been looking at the Smyth VW based kit lately. Same idea as the Apex, but with a Golf or Jetta. It even has the same Celica headlights too. I'm really liking the idea of a turbo VW VR6 engine or the turbo diesel. The looks of the Smyth G3F are superior to the RCR 818, IMHO. I just don't think the handling would be better than the 818 and probably not better than the Apex.
Patiently waiting for news...OK, maybe not so patiently.
Patiently waiting for news...OK, maybe not so patiently.
