It's interesting for sure, I wonder how they would plan on doing that/what would have to change to make it fit.
Superlite GTA
- Thread starter karlo
- Start date
It's interesting for sure, I wonder how they would plan on doing that/what would have to change to make it fit.
"They" wouldn't plan on doing it...they have asked me to potentially develop it but only if I decide to accept their offer to purchase...but why would I....?..to create a product in competition with my own...
As I said I am undecided..period.
As I said I am undecided..period.
Seems like you would need a longer wheel base.
From my perspective the transverse option seemed to open up two lower cost drivetrain options for this car. As much as I would love a mid engined V8, with a Graziano, it seems like this is taking this platform in the wrong direction.
... but hey, what do I know?
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I have mixed feelings. Your original intent with the car was to draw in the younger crowd. I am part of that younger crowd and on the way young side of that young group at that. I have a build plan for the 4g63 variant Apex that totalls roughly 40k but should get me close to 600 hp. I swore that 40k would be my absolute upper end. Assuming the long v8 needs a transaxle... that would mean a graz box. Configuring an Apex with a graz and ls376 would push the budget up to around 50k+ and net less hp (not that 500 is too little). That would push the Apex out of reach for me for even longer.
I agree, it's almost into SL-C territory and being younger(and just married) the cheaper the build starts out at the better!
That's why he stated that he was only thinking about it. A longitudinal set up would require more than just frame changes. It would turn into a whole new car. Fran has already dedicated a couple years on this project. Switching things up now would be restarting it from scratch. The front clip would carry over, but everything else behind the cab would be different.
One other thing to remember: This car is breaking new ground (as far as I know). Using an existing chassis, swapping the drivetrain from front to rear, and completely reengineering the front and rear suspension, has never been done before in the industry. Anybody can mig weld some mild steel sticks together, design a half-assed body, and sell it for 10k. This is completely different.
One other thing to remember: This car is breaking new ground (as far as I know). Using an existing chassis, swapping the drivetrain from front to rear, and completely reengineering the front and rear suspension, has never been done before in the industry. Anybody can mig weld some mild steel sticks together, design a half-assed body, and sell it for 10k. This is completely different.
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IMO, you need the Apex to expand into the the younger end of the market, where you will be able to sell numerous upgrade parts. I think that it's a good business move for RCR / Superlite. You wouldn't have invested so much in the Apex if you didn't already know this.
It's nice having someone with cash confirming your strategy though
My own thoughts FWIW are that I liked just about everything (that I've seen) about the original, but was struggling with the engine of choice (6 bolt 4G63) being close to 25 years old. The chassis/cabin is also getting pretty long in the tooth, but there are enough of them available from the non-turbo cars that DSM people don't want that they can still be found in good shape.
I always thought if there were just a few other power options, it'd be ideal. I know that development takes $$$ though.
Longitudinal V-8 to me just puts it in competition with the other RCR offerings and likely kicks the price up there too. Price was a huge part of my consideration for planning to do this. I'd be interested in the 818 too, if I even remotely liked the way it looks and it had a roof.
I always thought if there were just a few other power options, it'd be ideal. I know that development takes $$$ though.
Longitudinal V-8 to me just puts it in competition with the other RCR offerings and likely kicks the price up there too. Price was a huge part of my consideration for planning to do this. I'd be interested in the 818 too, if I even remotely liked the way it looks and it had a roof.
Nope, I also agree. Save the longitudinal V8's for the SLC's/GT40's/etc.
I see the GTA to be the baby brother to the SL-C. Transverse IL4's and V6's should be the name of the day.
Thanks for chiming in regardless Fran.
I see the GTA to be the baby brother to the SL-C. Transverse IL4's and V6's should be the name of the day.
Thanks for chiming in regardless Fran.
I'm certain you've already thought of this, but why not some sort of a joint venture? "They" buy what you've done so far for "x", Superlite gets "y%" of sales (royalty) that "they" generate, plus Superlite receives payment for any additional services/contract manufacturing, etc. Might free up capital and resources while still providing for additional product line revenue source without overhead (marketing, customer service, inventory, etc.)
This is all pretty interesting however this is not really the direction I was hoping to hear. I keep thinking I'll log in to the website and see all the pics we hoped for and orders being taken. Not so...The APEX still seams pretty far off. I'm not really in a position to wait at least another year to start my build so regrettably I've decided to move on. Test driving the C7 this weekend. Best of luck to RCR the APEX and your builds. I'll be checking in.
Fran,
Thank you for the update, but this is kind of disappointing to hear. I have been following the Apex and the FFR 818 because they are “entry level” kit cars with modern looks for first time builders. Like others have pointed out they are young (under 45) and looking to do their first kit car on a low end budget (under 40Kish). Not everyone can wait into they are over 50ish and have the 60 – 80K to do a V8 kit car build. Plus some view the Apex as a daily driver with a 4 cylinder. I would.
Me personally I want to start my first kitcar in the next two years when my son is 6-7 years old to teach him what I learned from my father. I don’t plan to get my son in racing like I was, but was hoping to teach him auto mechanics and some driving skills (autocross) with a modern looking kit car. My real goal is to build a GT40 to put my father’s 427 side oiler in, but I want to do this later on when I have more free money in hand and time. To do it right.
I am not a business man or in your field of expertise, but a couple of points I want to make. 1. FFR 818 really disappointed a lot of people with the look and lack of coupe body style. But there is no other option so people are settling for it. 2. There is a younger generation that love the 4 cylinder turbo and I am sure you could grow your market share with an Apex kit car. 3. It your business, your money, and your time. You know what best for your business and I am sure you will do what is best, even if it is to sell or moff ball this project.
At the end of the day I will keep my eye on the Apex, 818 coupe, and sorry to say I am watching the DDR Miami GT (no other option out there). I have learned that if you are patent things will come to you. I am hopeful that the Apex project will come to production with the original plan of being an affordable entry level kit car to get the “next generation” into building their own cars. I am one of them.
Thanks
Doug
Thank you for the update, but this is kind of disappointing to hear. I have been following the Apex and the FFR 818 because they are “entry level” kit cars with modern looks for first time builders. Like others have pointed out they are young (under 45) and looking to do their first kit car on a low end budget (under 40Kish). Not everyone can wait into they are over 50ish and have the 60 – 80K to do a V8 kit car build. Plus some view the Apex as a daily driver with a 4 cylinder. I would.
Me personally I want to start my first kitcar in the next two years when my son is 6-7 years old to teach him what I learned from my father. I don’t plan to get my son in racing like I was, but was hoping to teach him auto mechanics and some driving skills (autocross) with a modern looking kit car. My real goal is to build a GT40 to put my father’s 427 side oiler in, but I want to do this later on when I have more free money in hand and time. To do it right.
I am not a business man or in your field of expertise, but a couple of points I want to make. 1. FFR 818 really disappointed a lot of people with the look and lack of coupe body style. But there is no other option so people are settling for it. 2. There is a younger generation that love the 4 cylinder turbo and I am sure you could grow your market share with an Apex kit car. 3. It your business, your money, and your time. You know what best for your business and I am sure you will do what is best, even if it is to sell or moff ball this project.
At the end of the day I will keep my eye on the Apex, 818 coupe, and sorry to say I am watching the DDR Miami GT (no other option out there). I have learned that if you are patent things will come to you. I am hopeful that the Apex project will come to production with the original plan of being an affordable entry level kit car to get the “next generation” into building their own cars. I am one of them.
Thanks
Doug
For me, having some new kit car (aka, fly-by-night) company produce the Apex is worrisome, and I'd want to wait a good, long while to see how things shake out. I don't really like the 818. So, barring miraculous performance specs by some other company (and some track history of stably being able to deliver what they promise), I think I keep saving my beans and wait for the SLC.
What makes you think fly-by-night? Just curious.
Do you think Fran would consider passing his baby on to a "fly-by-night" outfit - I don't :thumbsup:
If its not a RCR Product I'm out... Sorry. I love the APEX and I just purchased an awesome partial donor, but RCR is the only component car Cie I would trust with my money...
Can't speak for the person you're replying to, but I guess "fly-by-night" doesn't really have to mean a scam artist. I imagine a lot of "fly-by-night" companies may have started out meaning to be legit, but the finances weren't there. Doesn't take the sting out of it if you get burned though.
I only happened upon this place because I randomly saw the SLC on the internet. Unfortunately an SLC isn't really in the cards for me at the moment. I was/am looking forward to the Apex as sort of a way to get my feet wet building a car. As much as I love the SLC, I can't justify the $$$ even if I had it, considering I don't have the skills for an SLC at this point. OTOH, the Apex looks to be a little more my speed as far as $$$ + a little OTJ training. The huge bonus is that it is a really appealing car to me, and could serve as a driver if needed. The only other kit I could see myself buying right now is a Cobra replica, which would be more or less useless half the time. I just can't get excited about that.
I doubt I'd be in the market for an Apex if it gets passed on to another company. I have a healthy bit of skepticism about the whole kit car biz (nothing against Fran or RCR at all, he seems to be one of the good guys.)
If it does get passed on to another company, I hope they have the resources to really support it. Unfortunately, the idea of a longitudinal drivetrain just seems to add to the expense, and probably overcomplicates the original intention of the car. Seems to me a turbo 4 would be plenty powerful for the car, especially with a few mods.
At this point I'm leaning towards trying to restore a basket case Mustang convertible that's been sitting behind the barn for a number of years now. If I can manage restoring that car the way I originally intended, I'll have the confidence to tackle an SLC at some point.
Because I've been looking at kit cars and kit planes for about 20 years. I've seen SO many companies come and go. So many cool concepts that never materialized, so many flash-in-the-pans it would take me a little while to list them here. RCR and FFR are about the only two companies that have any sort of longevity to speak of in cars I'm interested in.
If someone else takes the project over, I won't be putting my money at risk until I see some real track record of deliver and of other's feedback on customer service and quality of parts. There must be something about the Apex that made Fran even consider selling the project to someone else. I don't know Fran, but that, in itself, is worrisome to me. I would hope he would turn the project over to someone who had some stability and some business smarts. But, these products are just big boy toys. Success is very hard won these days.
My pennies will continue to go in the bank toward the SLC for now.
I'll take a cut at this one.
DISCLAIMER: I have no inside information about the Apex and I haven't spoken to Fran about the Apex since June of 2013, but Fran has my Eclipse, 2008 Impala V8 drivetrain, and my money, so my car is one of the Apex "beta builds." You may want to review my June 30, 2013 post in this thread here: http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum-rcr40-slc-p4-mkiv/36893-superlite-gta-50.html#post412402
There IS "something about" the Apex that made Fran consider selling the project to another company: Emotion, or lack thereof.
The first RCR design (the GT40 I think), started life with one thought: "It would be REALLY REALLY cool to build and have this FOR MYSELF, and there are enough people with money and similar interests for me to make a living selling duplicates in component form."
That first design was the hardest, but after that, all the longitudinal mid-engine cars had 90% of the analytical work already done--alter the dimensions of the rectangular tube and sheet aluminum so the wheelbase and track width fit the different replica body, and you're almost there. With CAD and FEA computer programs, you can know your results before ever firing up the metal saw, CNC mill, and the welder. So now, the initial thought for new offerings becomes "It would be REALLY REALLY cool to build and have a 917, and P4, and T70, and SLC, and Le Mans, and Ford GT-R, and most of the hard design work is already done, and customers will want those cars, too!"
This is why Fran can build one- or two-off clone cars for the movies such as Need For Speed and only charge these studios a tiny fraction of what the original would cost.
The coming mid-engine race truck is just an LMP-derived chassis and drivetrain with ten times the suspension travel and a body of aluminum sheet. Fran probably had 95% of the design fleshed out on his computer in one weekend. If he sells three of them (one probably to me) he'll make his investment back.
The Apex was conceived from a completely different perspective: A business decision to go after the much larger "younger-with-less-money" segment of the market in order to grow the entire RCR/Superlite business.
I personally think the Apex concept is pure genius, but understand this: If you exclude his first GT40 or whatever, the Apex probably represents more engineering and design man-hours than ALL FRAN'S OTHER CARS PUT TOGETHER. I can't fault the man for exploring all options regarding this major business undertaking.
Fran, call me if you want. I'd like to talk about getting the trans to Triple Edge Performance in Ft. Wayne and the engine to Brian.
JR
I am saddened by the potential drivetrain change. There are already so many V8 kits on the market. 4G63 made Apex extra special to many... I really hope this doesn't happen.
If you mean the longitudinal V8, Fran said in post #1882 that he wouldn't design a car for some other company if it would compete with the SLC .
If you mean the LS4 drivetrain option, that's been on the table for over a year. The main focus of the Apex was and is the 4G63 drivetrain.
JR
