Superlite GTA

[Stephen]

Fran,

Question on the Audi V8: will it fit in the standard kit? Early on you said, "No V8 though as we are about 2inches short on the firewall," which I took to mean nix on the Audi V8, but did that refer instead to the GM LS-family? It sounds like the custom build you're doing now is using the LS, which made me wonder.

Mike,

When I looked through the VAG self-study guides some months back I found two lengths for the V8, 464mm and 516mm. It wasn't clear to me the reference points involved, nor whether these were different versions of this engine, or merely different reference points.

BTW, your comment on the disposable nature of the Audi 4.2 reminds me a lot of the Northstar, which I've eyed at times for one of my projects. Disposable engines scare me, though in truth I don't know why, assuming the economics work right.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

It will not fit in the standard kit as that is 1.8 VW only...once you have purchased a kit you can fit anything your heart desires

 

[mike]

Fran,
Mike,

When I looked through the VAG self-study guides some months back I found two lengths for the V8, 464mm and 516mm. It wasn't clear to me the reference points involved, nor whether these were different versions of this engine, or merely different reference points.

BTW, your comment on the disposable nature of the Audi 4.2 reminds me a lot of the Northstar, which I've eyed at times for one of my projects. Disposable engines scare me, though in truth I don't know why, assuming the economics work right.

I've seen the 464mm but not the 516mm. Another member here posted some info a while back on the ABZ engine at 490 mm. from crank pully to bellhousing face.

I have to wonder if the 516mm is including the fan on the front of the engine which is worthless to us. Take the fan & fan clutch off and leave the pully as an idler so I didn't have to come up with a new serpentine belt system is what I was planning to do on the 2.7 V6. The newer 4.2 engines don't even have a mechanical fan.


As far as disposable engines go. Doesn't bother me. I just wouldn't buy one of these Alusil block engines without doing a compression and leakdown test and I wouldn't just take their word on it either, I want to be standing there when it's done. With a good compression and leakdown test the heads don't have to come off. Can easily do a timing belt change, freshen up the main and rod bearings and change main seals, cam seals and some other misc gaskets to seal everything back up before dropping the lump in the engine bay.

 

[Stephen]

It will not fit in the standard kit as that is 1.8 VW only...once you have purchased a kit you can fit anything your heart desires

Got it. I chose my words poorly, since I suppose what I meant was what would have room to fit to the fwd transaxles, given the wheelbase you'd laid down for the body and subframe. In thinking about it now, I realize I have barely any idea of how the back of the car goes together and what the other critical clearances might be, so the question was premature and incomplete. No doubt by the time (if ever) I'm free of my current projects, most of the options will have been well explored.

 

[mike]

Fran, you can make your life easier if you tell people "Yes it will fit" and then hand them this picture.


A mid engine Austin Mini with an 11 ton Cummins QSK78, 78 liter V18 monster w/ 12 tubos 3,500 bhp and 14,000 Nm of torque

 

[Scott Davis]

Scott, once you start "building" a junkyard engine, you'll quickly find cost skyrocket to where you can easily drop $5k - $15k into it and more into any manufacturers engine. It becomes a "While I'm in here I might as well do this too."

Well I certainly know the tendency for the "While I'm in here", but generally I'm referring to an apples to apples build. I'm sure I can source affordable/decent miles parts (LQ4 + L92) and come in under a crate engine (LS3). My "While I'm in here" for this build seems to be the E85. I keep coming back to wanting to run it (but larger injectors and dual bosch do addup).

I'll also admit that part of the appeal of the V8 build is not having to fiddle around with FI and the required plumbing. That can definitely eat up some cash. If you can make 400+NA that would be a lot easier. I also have some concerns about the intercoolers getting enough flow.

Now that you've made all the modifications, the engine no longer has the same volumetric efficiency so you need to get it on a dyno and get it properly tuned by a competent tuner that knows how to tune your particular ecu. Dyno time runs about $150 an hour and Tuning will start at about $400 - $500 and up. Easy to drop another couple grand into that.

All three of my engine choices whether 1.8, 2.7 or 6.0 would require tuning...so in my eyes that's a wash, though I do think LS tuning can be found cheaper. Again, I'm not attached to one vs the other. I will take the path of least resistance that meets my goals. I still don't have enough info to know what that is yet. Can't wait to see more.

 

[Samuel Blanco]

Hey Fran how much would you estimate the cost to fully build the apex? I'm taking about the most basic just 1.8t engine no add ons other than what provided in the kit. And say suspension from c5 is 2000, engine 1500, tranny 500, kits 10,000. So I'm seeing roughly 14,000 what other major components would be needed to get it running? Would I have to use other wiring then what is already in the donor eclipse such as the Isis wirring system? Anyone can answer I just kinda wanna know the estimated full price of building this kit car. Oh and I alrady bought the donor last month so don't need to calculate that into final price.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Hi Samuel.
you have to add wheels and tyres and paint as main expenses.

You have the option to use the factory Mitsubishi cassis wiring and splice in the VW engine sensors or strip it all out and use a different harness for the chassis. The engine will require the VW ECU and a small engine harness inexpensive and easy to get.

 

[Kasey]

Iam a bit unfamiliar with the trans option. Can anyone point me to some information about how much tq/hp it can handle in stock form and if there is aftermarket support to upgrade its internals if need be.

 

[stevenml]

Iam a bit unfamiliar with the trans option. Can anyone point me to some information about how much tq/hp it can handle in stock form and if there is aftermarket support to upgrade its internals if need be.

These are pricey but its a good look at what you can do with plenty of money.

01E Transmissions, Advanced Automotion

There are many options for aftermarket support and adapter kits.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Keep in mind that the transaxle in the Passat is one of the smallest/cheapest but it can still handle pulling around a heavier car with turbo upgrades..

 

[Scott Davis]

From earlier in this thread

Whats interesting is that depending on which forum your reading everyone has a different opinion on which is stronger O1E fwd or 016 (believe us standard 5spd). Scott at AA has said "01e > 0a2 > 01x > 016" and I tend to believe him. But I'd love to know the trq ratings for 01E vs 016 if anyone has it.

I never really got an answer to this and part of the reason is that it's pretty subjective. Lets say from the above (and I'm no expert and only based on reading around) 01e > 0a2 > 01x > 016. lets say corresponding Max HP 550+>450>400>350. Throw the 02M and I think 02J in there similar to the 016. But again you should ask an expert or do more research before deciding.

 

[James]

These are pricey but its a good look at what you can do with plenty of money.

01E Transmissions, Advanced Automotion

There are many options for aftermarket support and adapter kits.

I only wish I could use transaxles that costs that much or little I should say...lol. I guess (assume) the GTA does not suffer the same issues with output shaft angles as the SLC does.

 

[Will Campbell]

I only wish I could use transaxles that costs that much or little I should say...lol. I guess (assume) the GTA does not suffer the same issues with output shaft angles as the SLC does.

The SLC uses 930-style CV joints which are capable of running at 20+ degree angles, much greater than any SLC will likely ever see, regardless of the transaxle used.

These CVs are used in off road buggies that really do see extreme driveshaft angularity in use, and stand up to very high power engines like ours at those angles.

It is a popular misconception that these CVs need to run at or near 0 degrees.

The SLC doesn't have a problem with axle angles with any transaxle I've ever seen in one

The transaxle issues that any mid-engined, high-power car like the SLC have have to do mostly with cost, torque capacity and fitment. But CV joint angles are not one of them.

 

[James]

The SLC uses 930-style CV joints which are capable of running at 20+ degree angles, much greater than any SLC will likely ever see, regardless of the transaxle used.

These CVs are used in off road buggies that really do see extreme driveshaft angularity in use, and stand up to very high power engines like ours at those angles.

It is a popular misconception that these CVs need to run at or near 0 degrees.

The SLC doesn't have a problem with axle angles with any transaxle I've ever seen in one

The transaxle issues that any mid-engined, high-power car like the SLC have have to do mostly with cost, torque capacity and fitment. But CV joint angles are not one of them.

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but IIRC, Fran informed me if I were to try to run the Audi Transaxle, I would either have to raise the engine up a few inches or run high JV joint angles which can cause a number of problems (short lifespan of CV joints, high torque lose,, ect). If I am wrong please let me know. Audi transaxles are much more readily available than the G50 (although I was able to get my hands on a G50-20). I think it would cost a lot less to regear an Audi OE1 or other Audi transaxle than it would a Porsche transaxle.

 

[Will Campbell]

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but IIRC, Fran informed me if I were to try to run the Audi Transaxle, I would either have to raise the engine up a few inches or run high JV joint angles which can cause a number of problems (short lifespan of CV joints, high torque lose,, ect). If I am wrong please let me know. Audi transaxles are much more readily available than the G50 (although I was able to get my hands on a G50-20). I think it would cost a lot less to regear an Audi OE1 or other Audi transaxle than it would a Porsche transaxle.

I can't speak for Fran or anyone else of course, but the 930s can handle 20+ degrees. That's a lot. And the sand rail guys do it all the time.

I know of one SLC that was setup to run an 01E before a deal on a Porsche transaxle came up.

 

[James]

Shoot, if it's possible to run an O1E, with wide ratios and say a 3.44 rear end, and have it hold up to say 500hp,, would make a nice solution. Yes, guess I am dreaming.

 

[stevenml]

My understanding is that the apex was designed for a vw transaxle being an 01E, 012 or 016.

I recently placed an order for one and am hoping to fit it with an LS3 + 01E as I am not a turbo guy.

If the LS3 doesn't eventually make sense, will fit it with a vw 6 or 8. I would probably lean towards a vr6. The 100% vw drivetrain would keep in line with the original mounting configuration designed by RCR. Lugtronics make a good standalone plug-n-play ECU.

I am currently looking for an eclipse. The 01E FWD's are not cheap. Unless someone knows where I can pick one up reasonably.

 

[Kasey]

Ok thanks for the reply's everyone about the trans... I was only curious as iam unfamiliar with these transmissions and was kicking around the idea of a build....

That site posted above stated that these transmission are used in the new a6 and s4. Those cars factory are 222hp/310tq and 333hp/325tq, so going with RCR supported driveline , are these the numbers that the GTA are to perform within? without fabricating and swapping in a custom setup?

 

[Scott Davis]

I recently placed an order for one and am hoping to fit it with an LS3 + 01E as I am not a turbo guy.

Can't wait to see this. Are you having SL work on this? or are you planning on doing the work/fabrication for the LSx yourself? I want to do something similar but was hoping to leverage off the work Fran was doing on the two V8 cars (and potentially spread the additional cost among other's wanting V8's).

The 01E FWD's are not cheap. Unless someone knows where I can pick one up reasonably.

I'm not proficient with setting up shipping from Europe, but there are a bunch on the euro ebay site from 400-900 euro. Not sure how cost effective that is after $conversion/shipping/refurb. Still seems cheaper then 3k.

]Those cars factory are 222hp/310tq and 333hp/325tq, so going with RCR supported driveline , are these the numbers that the GTA are to perform within? without fabricating and swapping in a custom setup?

Start looking at the audizine and vwvortex builds and you'll see they handle more than factory numbers. Some of the earlier transaxles were said to be overbuilt. That being said there is not a lot of FWD monsters out there, most are running AWD for obvious reasons and so they are built differently and handle the torque differently then what we're looking at. Time will tell what these can hold. My thoughts so far are stay around 350hp unless O1E.