“They shall not grow old”

Simon

Active Member
#1
Watched the premiere of the film last night.
A difficult watch at times, but amazing, gory, bloody but magnificent.
Voiced entirely by survivors of the conflict.
Its a must see film. Some of the attitudes of the soldiers at the beginning who couldn’t wait to sign up is an eye opener.
The thing you take away is the futility of war. The boys (and they were mostly boys) on both sides were just fighting because they’d been told to without really knowing why.
So very sad
Go and see it.

Simon
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Premier Supporter
#2
"The boys...were just fighting because they’d been told to without really knowing why."

Man, is that the truth. While there was no doubt at ALL about why we fought WWI & II 'far as I'm concerned, not knowing "why" certainly was much the case regarding 'Nam.

I recall having to watch what one could only call a propaganda film wherein LBJ asked the question, "WHY Viet Nam?"...and then proceeded to rattle on for about 1/2 an hour AVOIDING any sort of real answer.

Now we all know "why Viet Nam" - Johnson lied about the Bay of Tonkin. That's pretty much the long and short of it. Similar dishonesties of one type or another are more than likely at the root of all conflicts...hence the statement "without really knowing why" is 100% valid...probably even regarding WWI & II if one chooses to dig deep enough.

I need some coffee...
 

Howard Jones

Gold Supporter
#3
Larry, what would have happened if the US had remained neutral throughout WW1 and WW2? WW1 is the more interesting question because it was directly responsible for WW2.

However to do so (the US remains neutral in European affairs from about 1916 - 1940) would have included reneging on treaty's with several allies, much longer stalemated WW1 trench warfare in western Europe and an extended length of time for Soviet Russia to strengthen and consolidate it's power in the 30s at the same time the European democracy's, depleted and weakened by a much more damaging WW1 were forced to accommodate the Soviets. We may have found ourselves isolated in the western Hemisphere with a mostly communist Europe, were England holds out the longest. If we did not support them at that point then they would had most certainly been forced to make a deal from a very weak position with the soviet controlled Europe. At that point had this happened they (Soviet Union) most certainly would have moved to control middle eastern energy resources.

The other interesting question may well have been what would have happened in Asia? Japan is allowed to remain in China until the 40s only to have found itself buried in a quagmire where the Soviet Union backs the communist Chinese in a guerilla war in China and elsewhere in Southeast Asia. The Japanese run out of their limited resources just as the Russians and Chinese begin to take back territory in Northern China. It is not a stretch to see a combined effort (Russian support/ Chinese manpower) invasion of Japan.

Middle eastern resources controlled by the soviet union coupled with a European/ English alinement with them and a communist Chinese controlled Japan/ Asia (including Australia and New Zealand) is just about the worst case scenario for the US isolated on the western hemisphere.

In any case we would be looking at a very different world in the 50s and 60s had the US not participated in the realignment of power in Europe and for that matter the Pacific during the early decades of the 20th century.

Viet Nam:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0449908704/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

https://www.amazon.com/Bright-Shini..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=80AZCCZ1AHD1XC6SN6JY

https://www.amazon.com/Dereliction-...id=1539801736&sr=1-9&keywords=pentagon+papers



And the most powerful book every written:

https://www.amazon.com/We-Were-Sold..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=BKY843V6K5JTDBW8YKAY
 
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Larry L.

Lifetime Premier Supporter
#5
"...what would have happened if the US had remained neutral throughout WW1 and WW2? WW1 is the more interesting question because it was directly responsible for WW2."

All we'll ever know for sure is how everything turned out given who and what was in play at the time. The way history might have unfolded is full of ifs, ands, buts, and woulda, coulda, shouldas.

One thing was pretty darned evident back then though - it would have been impossible for the U.S. to stay neutral.
 

Howard Jones

Gold Supporter
#6
Larry WE AGREE!!!!!. Lota maybes. But the one pivotal moment in the last 70 odd years may well have been avoided if the US did not object to Japans invasion of China. Pearl Harbor. Had we continued unrestricted trading with Japan, moved our forces in the Philippians back to Hawaii and the west coast it is easy to see that Japan would have had no reason to take the huge risk they did by going to war with us in 1941. The attack of the US fleet in Hawaii and forces in the Philippines was a gamble that the US did not want to enter WW2 and would make a deal instead of going to total war with them.

Many believe that from Japans point of interest had Dec 7th been far less successful we just may have done just that. But who knows.

Here's a very interesting book on what well may be the turn of the century origin of the much larger and later picture in the western Pacific and east Asian history for the last 100 years.

https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Cruise-Secret-History-Empire/dp/B007MXCB6Y#reader_B007MXCB6Y
 
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Larry L.

Lifetime Premier Supporter
#7
Larry WE AGREE!!!!!. Lota maybes. But the one pivotal moment in the last 70 odd years may well have been avoided if the US did not object to Japans invasion of China. Pearl Harbor. Had we continued unrestricted trading with Japan, moved our forces in the Philippians back to Hawaii and the west coast it is easy to see that Japan would have had no reason to take the huge risk they did by going to war with us in 1941. The attack of the US fleet in Hawaii and forces in the Philippines was a gamble that the US did not want to enter WW2 and would make a deal instead of going to total war with them.

Many believe that from Japans point of interest had Dec 7th been far less successful we just may have done just that. But who knows.

Here's a very interesting book on what well may be the turn of the century origin of the much larger and later picture in the western Pacific and east Asian history for the last 100 years.

https://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Cruise-Secret-History-Empire/dp/B007MXCB6Y#reader_B007MXCB6Y

I say again: it would have been impossible for the U.S. to have remained neutral.

What's the ole saying? Appeasement amounts to feeding the alligator in the hope it'll eat you last?
 
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