Truly custom engine builds...

[Roark_John]

For "toy" purposes yes. Part of the reason for my saying that is I don't quite know what "are you interested?" means.

If as someone else suggested the question is "what configurations do you want?" then my answer would be "flat 12 because that's so hard to procure in the current environment" and "V-12 for musical reasons."

So back to the original question "would I be interested in having [all those] options" of course the answer is "yes" but how does my saying that help you?

I guess my question back to you is "what exactly are you trying to learn by posting in this forum?" Or put another way "what decision are you going to make based on this information?"

It helps me by understanding the market...for all intents & purposes you guys ARE the market. Enthusiasts who crave something a little different, that's why you're building replicas, customs and one-offs.

There is a much better cross-section of knowledgable users/buyers on this forum, than on many automotive forums spread across the hinterlands of the internet.

We have many folks on here who have worked for manufacturing concerns, own a boutique supplier of goods, raced & placed the originals, engaged in minutiae oriented recreation builds from the ground up...in other words, y'all know your shit! :thumbsup:

 

[Jac Mac]

Some of the Falconer engines have been used in aircraft, haven't they? the type approval for aircraft is difficult to get. His engines must be fairly reliable, I would think.

Only in Thunder Mustang & similar Sport Aircraft where there is no type approval reqd, not aware of any certified A/C with those engines, a few of the Thunder Mustangs have crashed, at least one of those was due to engine failure, but engine failure is a very broad statement, it could have been crap in the fuel or an electrical glitch. I read everything about that motor I could get my hands on at the time, the link to SBC is somewhat tenuous when you really get into the specs though..the engines are also used in larger offshore boat racers etc.

 

[Roark_John]

I read everything about that motor I could get my hands on at the time, the link to SBC is somewhat tenuous when you really get into the specs though...

You know you can't say something like that and not spill the goods! :laugh:

Everything I've read says that it uses the 400 SBC big mains, priority main & cam oiling, an uprated oil pump and splayed valve heads similar to the SB2 heads, it's pretty much just a SBC with half a block added on.

Most of that stuff is common in all the new aftermarket blocks cast by Dart, World & Brodix for SBCs.

 

[Rich E.]

Ryan Falconer Racing Engines - Welcome!

There was also a gentleman at SEMA back in 07 that put 1.5 LS1 motors together creating a V12 in a Suburban. Might be worth another look.

My take. Why reinvent the wheel. Most current motors are re-iterations of older motors, just refined. They've already done the work for you.

BTW, if you want true modular go rotary.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

It helps me by understanding the market...for all intents & purposes you guys ARE the market. Enthusiasts who crave something a little different, that's why you're building replicas, customs and one-offs.

There is a much better cross-section of knowledgable users/buyers on this forum, than on many automotive forums spread across the hinterlands of the internet.

We have many folks on here who have worked for manufacturing concerns, own a boutique supplier of goods, raced & placed the originals, engaged in minutiae oriented recreation builds from the ground up...in other words, y'all know your shit! :thumbsup:

Oh I get all that and agree wholeheartedly.:thumbsup::thumbsup: I was just wondering if you were going to ask anything more than just "are you interested?" I'd like to see a lot more Q & A on your concept.

 

[Roark_John]

Ryan Falconer Racing Engines - Welcome!

There was also a gentleman at SEMA back in 07 that put 1.5 LS1 motors together creating a V12 in a Suburban. Might be worth another look.

My take. Why reinvent the wheel. Most current motors are re-iterations of older motors, just refined. They've already done the work for you.

BTW, if you want true modular go rotary.

Why build a replica? Why build a custom? Why upgrade components in an older car? Why bother having an aftermarket?

Because I can offer a powerplant that fits within the dimensions of current OEM packages like the LS, while providing a higher cylinder count for those that are into that sort of thing.

A Falconer V12 is almost 9" longer than a SBC, and you can't fit it in an SL-C, 917, XJ-13, Lambo replica or any others without severely impacting the cabin or stretching the frame. It also costs $45,000...that's how much Fran's kit costs! An engine shouldn't cost as much as an entire car.

As for rotaries...there are already a handful of companies that are making aftermarket components and blocks for them. No need for me to step into an already crowded market with a steep learning curve.

There is no such existing competition for a bespoke V12/flat-12 that is affordable. Junkyard engines may be cheap, but not when you look at the ancillaries required to get them up & running.

That's the niche that I would like to create, and with my modular concept any engine from a V-twin to V16 can be used to fulfill that desire.

 

[Roark_John]

Oh I get all that and agree wholeheartedly.:thumbsup::thumbsup: I was just wondering if you were going to ask anything more than just "are you interested?" I'd like to see a lot more Q & A on your concept.

I would love to get more involvement from the board members on this. That was the whole intention of this little mission, to see what folks are truly wanting for their projects.

I've had inquiries for a true boxer 12, as well as V12s. What about a flat-8? Or a V-10?

I have designs for a very compact, powerful V12 based on LS architecture, as well as for an OHC version. With the pushrod V12 I can integrate direct-injection, VVT, and AFM using all factory GM parts. With the OHC version it is less cutting-edge, but still respectable with bucket followers and 4 valves per cylinder.

Per pound the pushrod design is very tough to beat for horsepower, but if the market won't respond to it due to perceptions of "low-tech", then there is no point in pushing the advantages.

So what I would like to hear is what you guys genuinely want to see in an available custom engine that would be 1.5-2X the cost of an LS crate engine. Tell me what features you are looking for, what you want it to do, where you want it to fit, etc.

 

[Roger Reid]

...So what I would like to hear is what you guys genuinely want to see in an available custom engine that would be 1.5-2X the cost of an LS crate engine...

Thats exactly what I want, a V12 cylinder based upon the LS architecture. Now, how long?

 

[egoman/ Shawn Wedge]

A Falconer V12 is almost 9" longer than a SBC, and you can't fit it in an SL-C, 917, XJ-13, Lambo replica or any others without severely impacting the cabin or stretching the frame. It also costs $45,000...that's how much Fran's kit costs! An engine shouldn't cost as much as an entire car.

I come from the world of dirt track racing where at the sprint car level the engines are worth about twice what the cars are worth.

 

[Mesa]

Hello John,
Although I prefer 4 cam heads, for reasons you state a flat plane crank V12 based on an LS would be OK. But please do something to make the heads look a bit more athletic so one does not feel compelled to cover them with a silly plastic cover (yick),

So are you suggesting a sub-20K price for such an engine?

 

[Seymour Snerd]

So what I would like to hear is what you guys genuinely want to see in an available custom engine that would be 1.5-2X the cost of an LS crate engine. Tell me what features you are looking for, what you want it to do, where you want it to fit, etc.

I want a DOHC V12 for an XJ13 replica and true boxer flat 12 for a 917. Sorry about the DOHC but it's kind of an esthetic/historical thing. I'll be a nice guy and not ask for air cooling on the flat 12.:shocked:

I think to get the ball rolling you should immediately build a demo pushrod V12 just to get credibility. I bet that would be your top seller anyway.

 

[Scott Calabro]

I want a DOHC V12 for an XJ13 replica and true boxer flat 12 for a 917. Sorry about the DOHC but it's kind of an esthetic/historical thing. I'll be a nice guy and not ask for air cooling on the flat 12.:shocked:

I think to get the ball rolling you should immediately build a demo pushrod V12 just to get credibility. I bet that would be your top seller anyway.

Ok, its old tech, but how about using VW bug engine, corvair or Honda CBX 6 Cyl architechture for the aircooled flat 12?

Or 12 clyinders from an IO 720 on a custom crankcase!

That would be just shy of 1100 CI....

http://www.lycoming.com/engines/series/pdfs/Specialty%20insert.pdf

Just a thought.

 

[Roark_John]

Thats exactly what I want, a V12 cylinder based upon the LS architecture. Now, how long?

Well, that depends on a few things.

Do you guys want a 60* V angle, or a 90* V angle?

Are you okay with a non-traditional bore spacing to accomodate smaller cylinders to fit within the same overall length as the LS engine?

By shrinking the bore spacing to 95mm from 111.76mm (4.4") the bore can be 89mm (3.5") while still offering good block stiffness and sealing. Total displacement would be in the 6.0-6.2L range, pushing around 650bhp using direct injection, with an even broader torque curve than the LS3 engine.

It would require about 2 years to go from art to part with full reliability testing and development. A little faster with the right tech partnerships.

Basically you'd be looking at a V12 version of the KMV4 motorcycle engine.

 

[Roark_John]

I come from the world of dirt track racing where at the sprint car level the engines are worth about twice what the cars are worth.

That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. The market gets much larger when you go from a $45-50,000 engine to an $15-20,000 engine. Even that price range will keep alot of guys from adopting it for their use.

Hell, remember how everyone squawks about how much a transaxle costs?

 

[Roark_John]

Hello John,
Although I prefer 4 cam heads, for reasons you state a flat plane crank V12 based on an LS would be OK. But please do something to make the heads look a bit more athletic so one does not feel compelled to cover them with a silly plastic cover (yick),

So are you suggesting a sub-20K price for such an engine?

Don't get me wrong, I love the look and sound of a DOHC engine as much as the next gearhead.

The problem is the cost of the additional components coupled with where that mass is situated. 3 additional cams plus twice as many valves, springs & keepers doesn't make for a less expensive engine, even with using off-the-shelf parts.

Splayed-valve tech plus tastefully designed cast valve covers would give you the visual "mass" and look of a DOHC motor without the added expense & maintenance.

Or it would be possible to revisit the multi-valve pushrod route for those 4valve lovers, using a HEMI type architecture as seen on the 5.7/6.1/6.4L Chrysler engines. The raised cam position helps avoid weird pushrod angles and additional linkages seen on aftermarket heads like those from Thunder Power.

And yes, the targeted price range would be between an LS7 ($13-14K) & LS9 ($18-19k) crate motor.

 

[Roark_John]

I want a DOHC V12 for an XJ13 replica and true boxer flat 12 for a 917. Sorry about the DOHC but it's kind of an esthetic/historical thing. I'll be a nice guy and not ask for air cooling on the flat 12.:shocked:

I think to get the ball rolling you should immediately build a demo pushrod V12 just to get credibility. I bet that would be your top seller anyway.

I don't have a problem with DOHC, it's the added expense of the additional valvetrain parts. Is there really a market for a $25-30,000 V12 that isn't OEM?

It would be just as easy to concurrently design a DOHC head to retrofit on the pushrod block, so long as those implementations are made at the same time to facilitate proper engineering on the crankcase.

That being said, are we asking for a cylinder bore spacing & diameter matching the original engines in those vehicles?

Parts compatibility across the entire platform will be the make or break decision for this proposition.

 

[Roark_John]

Ok, its old tech, but how about using VW bug engine, corvair or Honda CBX 6 Cyl architechture for the aircooled flat 12?

Or 12 clyinders from an IO 720 on a custom crankcase!

That would be just shy of 1100 CI....

http://www.lycoming.com/engines/series/pdfs/Specialty insert.pdf

Just a thought.

Nothing wrong with borrowing architecture from existing engines, so long as you don't transfer their problems with their solutions.

If I were to do a custom flat-12 for a 917 project, I would use Porsche cylinders & heads to do it. VW components would work, but the bore spacing would be off...this would make it more compact, but require designing all new heads to satisfy the power/sound/visual requirements.

The flat-12 based on the Lycoming would be very cool and very interesting, but who exactly would buy one? I don't see the market unless some of the air-racer crowd got onboard.

 

[David]

Basically you'd be looking at a V12 version of the KMV4 motorcycle engine.

I'd rather a V12 version of the RC45 motorcycle engine. Although that only gives you 2.2l without one serious big bore!

 

[Roark_John]

I'd rather a V12 version of the RC45 motorcycle engine. Although that only gives you 2.2l without one serious big bore!

Personally I prefer the MPE V4, but who's gonna quibble over nomenclature and heritage?

A V12 based on multiple sets of center-driven parallel twins is VERY doable. All of 3.5-4L with over 600hp...makes the Lambo & Ferrari twelves look kinda sad.

 

[David]

Personally I prefer the MPE V4, but who's gonna quibble over nomenclature and heritage?

Well quite, I just like my gear driven cams.
So much so currently have 3 bikes with them (down from at one time 5!)

A V12 based on multiple sets of center-driven parallel twins is VERY doable. All of 3.5-4L with over 600hp...makes the Lambo & Ferrari twelves look kinda sad.

In which case best to go RC30 based[1].


[1] For those not motorcycle inclined the RC30 is a 360 degree 750cc V4, gear driven DOHC. Gear drive between the cylinders. Titanium rods, very trick. RC45 is the successor, 360 degree 750cc V4, gear driven DOHC. Geardrive at end of cylinders.