V6 in sl-c???

[Damian]

My take on V6 in a sports car is this is NOTHING more than a FAD. A newer version of lets have a hang of and claim brilliance while doing it. Anyone else remember the the years in the 80's when V6's were all the rage but then it was all about MPG's not look at how I have to stuff 300lbs of shit in a car to equal what a V8 does easily and for the same weight. A v6 pushing 400hp that is almost twice the intended design is going to have longevity issue and if you design around that than you add big weight which negates the entire exercise. Now if you want to run into your local cars and coffee and say hey look I have the new found trendy thingamabob which is more complicated than even a nasa engineer could understand all the while TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH SIMPLE V*'s than hey you win!!! I'll keep my $ and simple way of getting around the turn with less hassle and comparable weight. Until I see a HUGE weight difference which would justify doing this it's all just nonsense. Hell Ford put the ecotech in the new GT ONLY as a marketing ploy to push the ecoline of motors. Like I said until I see empirical proof of a huge weight saving to justify the complexity than this will be viewed in my eyes as nothing more than a trend (like in the late 70's early 80's) or show eccentric alpha types.
Having said all that to each his own and that's one of the beautiful things about the SL-C; each builder gets to build it to his own liking. My only issue is with the reasons behind the V6 choice that has been offered thus far. Oh and SGT offers a V12 don't they (and and what cost which goes more to prove my point). I'm calling this the tree huger Al Gore worshiping phase. It too will pass just like it did back in the days.

 

[Chris Huck]

It's an interesting read, have a flat 6 in my project and we aim for near on 350 out of it, sure not as much as a crate motor but each to their own.
I have been researching/thinking about V6 engines for my next project (if I ever get my current one done!) after all the 962 seemed to do ok with a twin turb flat 6. The engine over here that seems easy'ish to get hold of with quite a few tuning options available is the early RS4 Audi V6 twin turbo motor with some serious hp depending on state of tune, certainly enough for me!
The other aspect of V6 over V8 is length of unit, I guess not an issue in an SL-C as it's already designed but for someone making a project using such an engine, it would allow the designer slightly more cockpit space/room.
The old Prosport 3000's that used to race didn't sound too bad either, I know turbo's would dampen this down a fair bit.
Horses for courses I guess but am not a huge fan of the V8 soundtrack, the only one I like is the Aston one, V12's now that's a different story!

 

[Damian]

You don't like V8 soundtracks BUT you like V6? Don't even know how to respond to that. You do realize that the sound has MUCH more to do with the exhaust, materials (resonance) and degree of bends used than the motor alone. It's why you hear all about companies pipping in sound or taking extreme measures like hiring Yamaha to design an exhaust system to make the cars SOUND BETTER. Isn't Ferrari now pipping in sound since they have been making the switch to FI? I know BMW does it. Like I said unless you have real constraints like space there is no, none, zero reason outside of personal satisfaction (lets face it that's what these are are mostly purchased for) to go with anything other than a V8. Just say that you are one of THOSE guys and keep it moving LOL. Just kidding guys put what you like in the cars so long as you keep building them!

 

[john b]

The big sports supercar manufacturers are being forced by new regulations to go with V6 engines. Except for that small group who are hearing impaired, or love the feel of turbo lag, V8 engines reign supreme in the hearts of sportscar lovers. With the SL-C and with most RCR cars, the car owner ALWAYS has the option to choose between V6 or V8. This choice is no longer an option for the big conventional sportscar manufacturers. And they HATE this! And their usual customers HATE this. So why build your RCR car to the same new V6 regulation standard? If you build your RCR car with a V6, you just passed up a HUGE marketing advantage that the RCR cars now have over conventional, heavily regulated sportscar manufacturing. So maybe build your car toward your special new advantage!

Maybe try this!
Ford Flat Plane Crank 5 2L V8 9
The new 5.2-liter engine is the first-ever production V8 from Ford with a flat-plane crankshaft, an architecture typically found only in racing applications or exotic European sports cars. Unlike a traditional V8, where the connecting rods are attached to the crankshaft at 90-degree intervals, this design evenly spaces all crank pins at 180-degree intervals.

The 180-degree, flat-plane layout permits a cylinder firing order that alternates between cylinder banks, reducing the overlap of exhaust pressure pulses. When combined with cylinder-head and valvetrain advancements, this permits better cylinder breathing, further extending the performance envelope of the V8.

The result is the most powerful naturally aspirated production Ford engine ever, at more than 500 horsepower, with a torque peak above 400 lb.-ft. The track capability is enhanced by the output characteristics of the engine - the 5.2-liter V8 features an exceptionally broad torque curve. Combined with its high-revving ability, the flat-plane 5.2-liter V8 gives drivers an enormous amount of performance and flexibility within each gear of the lightweight six-speed manual transmission. A standard Ford-tuned Torsen limited-slip differential optimizes cornering grip and straight-line traction.

"Make no mistake, this is an American interpretation of a flat-plane crankshaft V8, and the 5.2-liter produces a distinctive, throaty howl from its four exhaust tips,"
Ford Flat Plane Crank 5 2L V8 9

 

[Roger]

My take on V6 in a sports car is this is NOTHING more than a FAD.

Not a V, but the 911 hasn't done too badly on 6-cylinder engines.

A v6 pushing 400hp that is almost twice the intended design is going to have longevity issue and if you design around that than you add big weight which negates the entire exercise.

The 'entire exercise' is not to save weight. Fuel economy / emissions and packaging are advantages of using fewer cylinders. There are an increasing number of small (non-us term ) cars with 3 cylinder engines.

Like I said until I see empirical proof of a huge weight saving to justify the complexity than this will be viewed in my eyes as nothing more than a trend (like in the late 70's early 80's)

I'm calling this the tree huger Al Gore worshiping phase. It too will pass just like it did back in the days.

IMO, the trend is towards electric vehicles. They may or may not be more environmentally friendly, but they've reached the point where their performance is compelling.

I'd love to see another twin turbo SLC. Using a V6 should make fitting everything in easier.

 

[Damian]

Porsche offers more than a 6 and all of their high HP cars are FI (lets not get into the motor being in the wrong place and how long it has taken them to get it right HELLO CAN YOU WAY WIDOW MAKER A.K.A. YELLOW BIRD?) and lets be honest, how common is it to SWAP OUT THE 6 FOR A CHEVY V8 in older 911's. I know here in the states it's more common than you might think. Care to take a guess as to why that is? Now I'll just say that an exception never proves a rule only tests it and if you can only uses P cars as an example than you just proved my point yet again.
As far as saving weight I don't think anyone has come forth with DEFINITIVE evidence that going with a FI V6 or any ^ for that matter is saving anything weight wise nor fuel economy wise. Heck ask Jeff Swartz what his 1000hp (yes you read that right) LS1 gets. Here is a clue ..... close to 20mpg's at that 1000hp. SURE A 6 IS GOING TO COME CLOSE SURE!!!!!!!! Bringing a three cylinder into a conversation about performance cars just goes to show how far (and completely off topic) out of touch with reality and the entire purpose of this post (PERFORMANCE MOTOR) that point was.
In relation to electric cars i'll just leave a post from another member on another board I am on ( and some others on here will instantly recognize the quote) which sums up the idiocy of hybrid vehicles (and lets not get into ash to ash ratios's) "I thought supercar = douchiest turdbro with a battery powered pack to give it that boost swoosh + polarizing styling that makes no sense + disgusting and busy interior that people swoon over (I'm looking at you, Pagani Hayahurraykah) + automatic tranny"
Like I said build how you want; so long as you build them BUT lets not pretend that putting a 6 into a car like the SLC is anything more than foolish one upsmanship (which real motor heads will laugh at you and probably right to your face) with zero benefits (barring space constraints). Be men and say that you are the keeping up with the Jones type and really not into cars so much as fads and you will get a pass for at least being honest.

 

[Luke S]

I can easily see my son building an electric super car:

Now forgive the accent and pseudo drama, and just see what a guy in his garage can do currently with an "electric hotrod"! This was just an idea not too long ago on our vintage Mustang forums. Pretty quickly took it from an idea to a successful product.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjQtrysPzVI

Honestly, I'm old school so I'm going V8. I have several of those flat 6 thingies in my shop.....not that great for hp/weight or hp/mpg in my opinion. I guarantee that my 550hp flat 6 weighs more than a 550hp LSx or Coyote. Fact a full house SBF of mine weighs probably 150# less though not quite the torque band of the TT Boxster engine.

 

[Dutch]

"zero benefits (barring space constraints)"
Don't believe what your woman says - size matters

 

[Tom]

Man this has turned into a lot of "V-8 cuz everything else sucks, but do what you want bro!" venom! Does it really matter to you guys that much if someone puts something different in there? Would the world be an interesting place if every RCR vehicle had an LS3 in it? I thought car guys were about innovation and doing it their own way.

It's almost as bad as the anti-Apple comments anytime there's a new iphone released.

I guess I'm really an idiot since I'm driving a 2.0L NA boxer 4 and loving every second of it.

 

[Damian]

Ray; That was funny and Tom your not a hair dresser by any chance are you LOL I kid I kid. I never said LS3 only V8 of your choice. Since someone with real world knowledge of the weights of these has posted and the findings BACK UP MY THEORY which I suppose makes it fact at this point I don't see any reason to even entertain this.

 

[Tom]

Please, when you have my expertise we're known as stylists! Get it right!

If I had an unlimited budget to do an SLC, I would love to put some kind of V-10 or 12 in it. Why? Sound, exotic-ness, challenge, intangibles.

I get the V-8 idea, it's the logical choice. It's a good thing people are dreamers and not always logical or it'd be a boring world. Ever been to Vulcan?

 

[Kyle]

If you go with a 6cylinder, a bolt-on 500+hp GT3RS flat 6 would be pretty sweet! But I think the new 5.2L FPC Voodoo wins my vote!

 

[Damian]

I think someone is already doing a full Porsche drive-train. Not sure as to which motor it is BUT I think it's a 6

 

[Tom]

It's a 996 GT3, check the thread "All Porsche Powertrain in a SLC".

 

[Larry L.]

V6's belong in Miata's

...and the latest Ford GT evidently... :cry:

My own view mirrors yours. An exotic/supercar/hypercar, whatever you want to call cars of that sort need to be powered by a minimum of a V8. PERIOD.

'Just MHO...and I won't "walk it back" as they say...

 

[Les]

Damian, you wrote:

until I see empirical proof of a huge weight saving to justify the complexity than this will be viewed in my eyes as nothing more than a trend

Okay, you have piqued my interest. How much weight would an alternative engine need to save for you to say that it is "real" or "good"? Would the alternative engine need to equal the performance of a V-8 engine? If so, which V-8 engine would it need to equal?

Sincerely,

Les

 

[Ron Earp]

Would the alternative engine need to equal the performance of a V-8 engine?

If you're referring to the Ecoboost, it can already exceed the output of any of Ford's naturally aspirated V8s including those in race trim. Ford has been using the EB in motorsports for a few years now, including desert trucks and of course the Prototype that won the overall at the 24 hr at Daytona earlier this year. A TT V6 would be a fitting engine for an SLC, a modern supercar.

GT40 replica? Yeah, has to be a Ford V8 in my opinion. But a sleek clean sheet design supercar? Pick whatever suits your fancy.

PS-Miatas don't have V6s, never have, and it looks like Mazda has even picked a smaller inline four for their new Miata, but coupling it with lighter weight.

 

[Tom]

I just saw the Ecoboost-ed DP last weekend at Laguna Seca. It struggled that day due to gremlins.

Really enjoyed the sounds of the V-10's in the Lamborghini Gallardos and Huracans!

I wish someone would build something that sounds like the 1.5L BRM V-16!

 

[Eric McClellan]

I have no why I'm chiming in, but what the hell...

For me, it boils down to a simple equation, price per hp.

The LS3/525 that I have in my car is going to be far more economical that building any current V6 on the market to make equal power. Plus, the weight needed to add a turbo or two to me is almost negligible, at least for my purposes.

And what's more, the complexity, technology and parts needs to make that V6 perform at a higher level is only going to create issues with longevity.

Running a crate motor on pump gas with 10:1 compression will, on average, last a hell of a lot longer than a built turbo motor with 12:1... blah blah blah...

Last, what about replacement parts? Shit breaks. Where can a guy go to find LS parts... Oh ... right... Pretty much any junkyard in the country or parts store with parts literally on the shelf.

Anywhoozle. My $.02.

Now, if money isn't really a concern, that's a whole different ball game.

 

[Roger]

The nice thing about building your own car is that you can do what you want without having to justify it to anyone else (well, perhaps your spouse and vehicle licensing people). I love seeing people doing things differently - some will not be what I'd do, but they're exploring the problem space, and some genuinely interesting solutions will be produced.

Modern Engineering alleviates many of the longevity concerns over smaller engines, but it's hard to beat the cheapness of V8s - they have sales volume / availability on their side. I personally love the kick of a turbo, but, practically, a V8 turbo would just shred tyres. To me, a twin-turbo V6 makes a lot of sense, but each to their own.

Vive la difference!