What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF?

[Doug S.]

I'm starting an engine build and would like to hear from forum members who have knowledge or experience regarding use of a dry sump oiling system. If specific/specialized machining is necessary to fit the 302 with a dry sump, it would seem that now might (or, might not!) be the time to do the block machine work, so I'm soliciting suggestions for block modifications.

Q's abound--like, other than routine shaving of the main caps, line boring and decking of the block, what specific machining or parts would be necessary. It would also be a plus if whatever machining is done now would also be useful for both standard configuration and also for switching from standard pan/pickup to a dry sump system at a later date--conversely, would any of the machinging needed for the dry sump system prohibit use of a standard pan/pickup system? If the motor gets finished before I can buy my 40 kit I might just run it in something else--sort of a junkyard dog type of look with bite /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif , so the capacity to run in standard configuration is important!

Does stroke, i.e. standard stroke vs. stroker crank, effect the choice of dry sump system? I know the pans are very shallow to allow for low engine placement, but is there anything specific about the crankshaft type/material/weights/stroke/balancing method, etc., that might make one dry sump model or system preferable over another?

Build plans include the use of a gear drive system for the cam--does anyone know if this will present compatibility or fitment problems?

And price???? OMG-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif --this is an expensive proposition, so the decision must be made with due deliberation and forethought. I'm curious to hear from any of you gearheads as to your experience with this huge factor.

How about the streetability of a dry sump system--the 40 project will be far from a full time racer, but a couple of times a year it might be fun to see what it can do on a track (where I have no desire whatever to kill a motor due to oil starvation) , so whatever system I use will need to be not only reliable but also easy to work on.

I predict 90% street use with a moderate RPM limit on infrequent track events (probably around 6K) from a naturally aspirated stock stroke 302 at first. Target horsepower is in the 350-400 range. Later plans include a cam/induction upgrade at the time the 40 kit is built and that is when the switch to dry sump might occur.

I'm planning on completing this build with an all new reciprocating assembly, the parts for which will also be chosen for reliability and easy maintainence, but b/c a more mondo block is a future dream whatever parts I put in this build will need to transfer to that build later on.

Thanks for whatever help you can provide, guys. I've already made 2 pretty big decisions thanks to input form forum member--Y'all Rule!!

YD,E./PNB /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandito.gif

 

[Bill D]

I was going to dry sump my engine, but after talking with knowledgable people, it would be a waste of money for any street driven car. Lots of plumbing, the tank, the external pump, pulleys, belt, etc. just isn't worth the hassle. And the oil doesn't get warm enough because you are running with more oil than you would with a wet sump system.

Regards
Bill D

 

[Doug S.]

Thanks, Bill--

I've followed several of your build posts and it's surprising how similar our concepts are. Thanks for the input.

What would you recommend to gain ground clearance for the pan, or is this an arrea in which race and street needs just don't mix? I understand the benefit from having that engine sit low in the frame but maybe it just doesn't arise to the level of "an issue" in street use. I like some of the custom pans but have heard a lot about porous castings and leaks. Still, the main use of the car would be street use (rather, road use, and straight and flat at that) and from your description it sounds like a lot of extra engineering I'm not familiar with. Since this is going to be my first build, I want something that goes together without a lot of extra fabbing, particularly brackets and belt alignment problems. I must run A/C in the near desert Southwest so interference problems in the engine bay would not be welcome. Right now this doesn't seem like such a good idea, after all.

Have I hatched yet another hairbrained idea?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Anyone else??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif Does anyone out there run a dry sump on the street?

Thanks, guys.

YD,E./PNB

 

[Peter Delaney]

Doug, I'm with Bill in this one - way too much complication in dry-sumping a mostly road car (even a race car, as we have quite few GT40's over here which are mainly/exclusively very successful track cars, & I don't know of anyone who is running a dry sump).

I am just about to start a big rebuild of my engine & am looking at a smarter sump option than the stock 95 Mustang job that is there now. It is the usual "twin camel hump" design for the Mustang, but there is no need for the big recess in the middle on a GT40. Advice so far is to go for a higher capacity sump (ie >5 litres) with a windage tray & baffles, along with a high volume oil pump.

As I get the specs nailed down by the experts, I'll keep posting the updates on my thread in the Builder's section.

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

 

[Pat Buckley]

Doug,

I dry sumped my Kirkham - the block (big or small) does not need any machining - the oil enters and exits the block at the oil filter.

I agree that it is probably not worth it for a street car....plumbing the Cobra was tough - a GT40 would be a nightmare.

In the case of the Cobra having the oil filler cap on top of the right front fender made it worthwhile!!!

Pat

 

[Jac Mac]

Doug, If I was in your situation I would give some thought to using a wet sump ,but use an external belt driven pressure pump. The Peterson pump (Im not suggesting they are better than other's it just happens that I am familiar with them) has the same mounts etc as its big brother dry sump pumps. This will allow you to use a shallow pan for more ground clearance and as there appears to be a possibility that you may race the car in the future converting to full dry sump operation would not be a major as long as the size of the dry sump option was kept in mind at initial fit-up. One other thing to keep in mind when using tooth belt drive to any critical component is guarding against any possible debris grit etc in that area . Its to easy to flick a belt with one small stone etc.
Cheers Jack.

 

[Alex Hirsbrunner]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Hi Doug,

You may also want to consider adding a simple accusump (or other brand oil accumulator). Some plumbing still involved, but a much more reasonable solution for an occasional track car in my opinion. The 3 quart version should cover up any supply loss the wet sump pan design can't deal with.

http://www.accusump.com/

Regards,

Al

 

[Doug S.]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Thanks, all--very helpful suggestions. It sounds like there is no real reason to consider this since the primary purpose will be street/road use, anyway. I like that--less involved engineering, simpler installation, and big $$ saved for use on a different part of the project.

Al--I was planning on a accusump system for pre-oiling the motor, anyway, so this is all the more reason to get onboard. I was unaware that the accusump system would also provide oil during engine operation. Do I need to consider any special form of oil pan or does the system require any special machine work?

Thanks, again, guys.

Onward through the fog.

YD,E./PNB

 

[dave harris]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Doug,

Careful with the "high volume oil pumps" in small block fords - - - I've heard of a number of them causing problems due to the higher forces involved and at least two of the engine builders I've talked to told me to stay away from them. they both recommended getting a good standard pressure oil pump and having it gone thur (like a Meling racing pump).

As to oil pans - - depending on what chassis you get, try contacting Armando's - he makes custom pans and they are very nice - good oil volume and plenty of clearance -

 

[John Fitzpatrick]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Doug,

You may also want to consider adding a simple accusump (or other brand oil accumulator). Some plumbing still involved, but a much more reasonable solution for an occasional track car in my opinion. The 3 quart version should cover up any supply loss the wet sump pan design can't deal with.

http://www.accusump.com/

Regards,

Al

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll chime in and agree with Al on this one. My Lotus 47 has a 289 pan that has been cut way down for ground clearance. I added a windage tray from a Boss 302, a Melling high volume pump and an Accusump. I'm quite pleased with the result. I looked into a dry sump too, mostly for the "cool effect"and opted not to, mainly due to expense and lack of space.

On the subject of oiling, the original Shelby 289 Cobras and (I think) the Mustang GT 350s had their oil pick-up tubes brazed into the block. I'll bet the 40s did too. Cheap insurance!
John

 

[Alex Hirsbrunner]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Just as an FYI, I have personally experienced an on-track failure at Road America directly related to using an HV oil pump in my SBF. Also, don't fall into the trap that I did and think that installing an HD oil pump driveshaft will help, as my oil pump driveshaft failed right at the transition from the thick to the normal size hex transition that fits into the pump and distributor. At a minimum, the FRPP shaft definitely has a stress concentration at the transitions.

Al

 

[Bill D]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Doug-
I'm using an oil pan from Armando's Racing Oil Pans. He makes a very nice steel replica of the original pan. It holds 8 quarts which is plenty. And it has baffles and doors to keep the oil at the pickup. It's not cheap at $450, bit is a very well made.

Also, as noted by others DO NOT use a HV/HP oil pump. A street car has tolerances that are too tight. You will end up blowing the engine. I'm using a standard volume SBF oil pump. This should be fine for any street driven car.

Dry sumping would "look" cool, but it's not worth it for what you're planning to build.

Good luck, and keep us posted to what you plan to build.

Cheers
Bill D

 

[John Fitzpatrick]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Al-
I know this will be another forehead-slapper, but would you explain what the abbreviations HD and FRPP driveshaft stand for?
Thanks
John

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

All good info here !
My /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twocents.gifas above,std. oil pump,windage tray,oil cooler,(hot climate areas)accusump and for the extra mile,fit gallery restricters for the top end, as sustained high noise tends to over fill the rocker covers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/1poke.gif--so good or extra drain back from the top end is a must as well.

 

[Mike Dozier]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

John

HD = heavy duty
FRPP = Ford Racing Performance Parts

Ford sells a heavy duty oil pump drivehaft that I think
is always cheap insurance...but as Al reports...not
a guarantee...especially under racing conditions.

MikeD

 

[Sandy]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Doug -

I have a dry sump on my RCR40 build, and it is nice, but not of choice. It ended up being needed due to a problem with the oil pump and crank interfearance. Drive and pulleys cost more money, plumbing issues, tank issues, much more of a headache. Definitly cool and would not turn away if you want good protection from oiling issues. For a street car definitly overkill, as BillD mentioned the pans from Armondo are Excellent, I have a 9qt Aviad pan and and 9qt Armondo pan for my SBF 65 Mustang and the Armondo pan is much better crafted and a bit better price to boot.

Also as Al mention you can do very well with a AccuSump from Canton, I have a 454 Chevy in a cobra and had to chop the pan to make the motor fit low, so will be using a 3qt accusump to help with the shallow pan. Easy to plumb and adds a lot of safety to your motor with only a little work. You can also get an external Canton-Mecca filter that has a top that can be ordered with a place for the accusump to be plumbed directly which makes a nice easy job.

For the drysump SBF in the RCR they have a block plate for the oil pump, and they tapped and plugged the oil galleys in the filter area and on the SVO block pump oil in into the front of the block, not sure if the same on non svo's, but I think you could just plumb the oil into one side of an external filter adapter and plug the other.

Also if doing a dry sump, some SBF pans are not notched for a starter, and this is OK IF you are using a rear mount starter like on the porsche boxes, this stuff pops up on EBAY but as alway be cautious of it.

Sandy

 

[Dan Haynes]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

My thoughts---

no need to dry sump. My Boss racecar is fine with a wet sump. Accusump is cheap insurance, and I use one. Get the electric valve version. If you go with the R-302 block, you will have a great oiling system, and definite overkill for the street. The dry sump is really only required on a sustained high rpm circle track motor. Those engines can suck in an air bubble through a wet sump and pop the motor. 8K+ RPM, dry sump for sure.

I like the external oil pump idea. I know a couple guys using them on boss racecars. I have no personal experience, but it sounds like the best of both worlds. An externally regulated pump, and a wet sump. I may switch to this at the next engine rebuild.

Jury is still out in my racing circles on the HV or standard oil pump. My engine has an HV pump. I wanted a standard pump, the engine guy was uncomfortable with it. Since it was his work, it got the HV pump. But, several of the guys I race with have changed to the standard pump and report no issues. I would absolutely NOT use a high volume pump in a 351 Cleveland. Very bad idea. If you insist on using a HV in a cleveland, I have several ruined blocks you can buy from me. It will be cheaper in the long run.

 

[Doug S.]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

It sounds like we can put this one to rest, guys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dead_horse.gif . Same as the supercharger idea--way cool "Wow" factor, but not a good idea for a first time build. Been done, though!

I like this more and more as the build concept gels. The $$ saved by not supercharging and dry-sumping will be well spent on a LSD transaxle upgrade. I like the way Ron put it--"...do more with less".

Plans for the motor include an aftermarket block (I'll keep the stock iron TBird block for another project), forged steel crank, forged H or I-beam rods, good quality pistons (there will be another post when I get ready to order them). The target is a "small port Boss 302"--but, that is contingent on finding a good "Track Boss" intake manifold. Heads will be aluminum aftermarket 351 Cleveland units with the small 2V ports--they are big for a 302, but there may be a stroker crank in the future, too. The Kaase heads were intriguing, but the only valve covers available would not have "the look" I'm seeing, so a set of those gorgeous finned aluminum Cleveland valve covers will fill out the engine bay.

Accusump for sure!

I think I'll start with a carburetor at first, but I'm still intrigued by the MasFlo EFI idea. That can be a future upgrade, once the car is built and running and I get comfortable with driving it. It combines huge flow capacity with all the advantages EFI gives.

Parts will be accumilated in this order: crank, rods, and block first, then pistons and heads--that way if I never do find the TB manifold I can still run a good Windsor head without having to backtrack. With any luck the engine/transaxle will be completed and waiting for the big purchase. Like so many of us, I'm still dreaming about that day!

I really appreciate this advice from y'all. So far you've kept me from making two pretty significant mistakes and confirmed that I did have one good idea.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flehan.gifY'all Rule!

 

[John Fitzpatrick]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

[ QUOTE ]
*Snip*

I would absolutely NOT use a high volume pump in a 351 Cleveland. Very bad idea. If you insist on using a HV in a cleveland, I have several ruined blocks you can buy from me. It will be cheaper in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you explain why you rule out the HV pump specifically on the 351C? Are there other blocks that you'd put in the same category?
John

 

[Doug S.]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

To the best of my understanding, the 351 Cleveland had oil drainback problems with the oil pooling in the cylinder heads. To use a HV pump might well evacuate enough oil from the crankcase to allow the pickup to be exposed to air, which of course isn't a good thing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nono.gif . Perhaps if one were to use one of the larger capacity 8 or 9 quart oil pans, such as the Armando's Racing Pan that Bill D. mentioned above, it might not be an issue.

I've rebuilt plenty of 385 series 351's, both the Cleveland and the 351-M, and have used high volume oil pumps in all of them without problems, but these motors were not meant to turn at the high RPM's that my "small port Boss 302" target motor will turn. At high RPM's I can imagine that oil starvation could be a problem. FRPP and many others market restrictors to limit the amount of oil that gets to the heads, sending more to the main bearings, but most often the motors to use these restrictors were race motors spinning pretty high, anyway. I've never used an HP oil pump b/c of the possibility of blowing out a main seal.

I wonder, though, if an Accusump might solve the problem.

As far as other blocks in the same category, I suspect anything that uses the Cleveland 351 cylinder heads would be suspect. These heads can be mounted on the Windsor blocks with the "Street Boss" or "Track Boss" manifold I'm looking for. Other than that, I'll have to defer to those who are more knowledgable about those other motors.

John, check for a PM.