Climate change

[craig]

I don't give a shite about Al Gore, self interested politicians, scientific experts, or the EPA or the UN, it's plainly clear to me that we are trashing this planet with human pollution of all kinds, including pollution from internal combustion engines and we need to change our ways - dramatically, and immediately. I also don't give a shite if the current climate change that's in motion is man-made or natural, doesn't matter one bit, it's going to be painful for everyone over the long haul as people are going to starve in some places, people are going to suffer displacement and people's health is going to be negatively affected. Anything we can do now which might possibly slow the process is worth doing.

If the solution for changing our polluting ways includes scrubbers on stacks, tax dis-incentives, prohibition upon certain compounds/chemicals, tighter vehicle emission standards, extra industrial processes, recycling, etc. then so be it - stop whining or suggesting it's all a big hoax and get on with the work of changing our ways and improving our environment. It's really not that complicated once you accept that a continuation of the past will result in continued environmental degradation. I have four kids and I want them to be able to catch a fish one day, run in the rain, drink from the garden hose, see some old growth timber, swim in a lake - all the things that I did when I was a kid.

OK, I'll shut up now.

Cliff
If you think you're gonna live on this planet and not leave a TEMPORARY mark you"re kidding yourself.. ( you dispose of trash don't you)
But lets say for the sake of argument we (the US.) get rid of all pollution creating cars and industries....
What ya gonna do when China shits in your water?
I mean lets get real.. If you can't convince the world and I mean the whole world into following your line of thinking..than what? clean 1/2 the ocean and maybe 1/2 the sky? its silly..
Maybe YOU should concentrate on cleaning the lake YOUR kids will be swimming in. Have you ever gone to that lake to pick up garbage, bottles ,cans, old tires etc.......well have you?...or do I have to go and do it for you....again.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

This is rich, the EPA was suppressing Dr Carlin's report!
YouTube - "Suppressed" Climate Change Report Author Speaks Out on Fox News

 

[Cliff Beer]

Cliff
If you think you're gonna live on this planet and not leave a TEMPORARY mark you"re kidding yourself.. ( you dispose of trash don't you)
But lets say for the sake of argument we (the US.) get rid of all pollution creating cars and industries....
What ya gonna do when China shits in your water?
I mean lets get real.. If you can't convince the world and I mean the whole world into following your line of thinking..than what? clean 1/2 the ocean and maybe 1/2 the sky? its silly..
Maybe YOU should concentrate on cleaning the lake YOUR kids will be swimming in. Have you ever gone to that lake to pick up garbage, bottles ,cans, old tires etc.......well have you?...or do I have to go and do it for you....again.

Hi Craig,

Easy now. Why the hostile approach here? Did I do something to you in the past or WTF?

Many would say, yes, 1/2 the sky being clean, or half the water being clean is better than none. I tend to agree.

You missed the point. The point is not to achieve 1/2 anything, rather it's to achieve 100% improvement through a process of leading by example. The US should lead by example when it comes to environmental best practices. Others will follow, either voluntarily (when they see the benefits, or, that continued economic prosperity depends upon it) or with a combination of trade incentives and diplomatic pressures. This is how things get done in international politics.

I happen to live in a city that leads by example - Seattle has the highest recycling rate of any city in the US - about 60% of our garbage is recycled. That's a lot of waste that doesn't go into a landfill. Other cities are following Seattle's lead now that there's a clear example of what can be achieved. So, yes, "I dispose of trash" but it's likely that I pollute less with my trash than you do with yours.

My family and I spend a lot of time on the lakes and oceans here in Seattle, mostly sailing (which happens to be quite environmentally friendly). And, yes, there's an unwritten code amongst sailors to pick up floating trash such as cans and plastic bottles, and we do so regularly. My kids get a kick out of spotting such items and relegating them to the recycle bin.

Hope the above answers your questions completely.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Hi Craig,

Easy now. Why the hostile approach here? Did I do something to you in the past or WTF?

Many would say, yes, 1/2 the sky being clean, or half the water being clean is better than none. I tend to agree.

You missed the point. The point is not to achieve 1/2 anything, rather it's to achieve 100% improvement through a process of leading by example. The US should lead by example when it comes to environmental best practices. Others will follow, either voluntarily (when they see the benefits, or, that continued economic prosperity depends upon it) or with a combination of trade incentives and diplomatic pressures. This is how things get done in international politics.

I happen to live in a city that leads by example - Seattle has the highest recycling rate of any city in the US - about 60% of our garbage is recycled. That's a lot of waste that doesn't go into a landfill. Other cities are following Seattle's lead now that there's a clear example of what can be achieved. So, yes, "I dispose of trash" but it's likely that I pollute less with my trash than you do with yours.

My family and I spend a lot of time on the lakes and oceans here in Seattle, mostly sailing (which happens to be quite environmentally friendly). And, yes, there's an unwritten code amongst sailors to pick up floating trash such as cans and plastic bottles, and we do so regularly. My kids get a kick out of spotting such items and relegating them to the recycle bin.

Hope the above answers your questions completely.

O.K but what are you going to do about China? They don't give a shit about your good example.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

O.K but what are you going to do about China? They don't give a shit about your good example.

We need people that can go to different countries and make them aware of what they are doing. I remember back in the 50's when I was kid, we had 12 acres of land in Connecticut, there was no community dump, we had ours on a remote spot of our land. I remember the neighbor changing his oil, digging a hole and burying it. I think some countries are still ignorant and need direction. There are places in Mexico that are scary. Helping these people is a good thing. Getting taxed and retaxed into oblivion by a Cap and Trade Bill that has so much hard proof against the theory is stupid. When the EPA surpresses a report contrary to the warming theory that shows that we are in a cooling cycle for the past 11 years, it seriously worries me. The polititcians and Gore could give a damn about warming or the planet, it's strickly for the dollar. If it worried Gore so much you would think he would lead by example and not use $1,500.00 a month in electricity for his fat ass and house!

 

[Dave Wood]

I haven't read all the posts, but did get through about 7-8 pages. The discussions regarding conservative/liberal thought always give me pause. I doubt there are that many people that fit into those 2 neatly defined categories, most people are wider thinking that either of those 2 "positions" allow. I am a Libertarian and have some liberal leanings as well as some conservative( as they are defined). I feel that everyone has the right( I'm an American) to free thought, especially when it is contradiction to the premise put forth by governing bodies. I don't ,however, feel that either side has the "right" to force me to believe something I don't and then support it or be punished. I accept that there is climate change, the earth has warmed since the ice age and there was little "human" contribution at that time. I live my life by my beliefs and share them with those interested, but realize that it is an "individual" thing and some may not want to take the road I have. That's fine, I don't ask you to nor will I force you to, just show me the same respect. I got by without any govt. help since leaving home at 18 and don't need any now that I am 58. I willing put my life decisions up for comparison with those made by our "legislators" and know that the ratio of right/wrong choices will be overwhelmingly in my favor, not their's.

 

[Ron Earp]

This is rich, the EPA was suppressing Dr Carlin's report!
YouTube - "Suppressed" Climate Change Report Author Speaks Out on Fox News

Dr. Carlin's report can be found here:

http://www.openmarket.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/Carlin-Final-Report.pdf

I am just beginning to read it now. However, as the author himself points out, the document is not a peer reviewed piece and therefore essentially the opinions of one author. The normal method of communicating information among scientists is that the communication will undergo an extensive peer review in order to eliminate incorrect information and to ensure the correct application of the scientific method.

Still, should be a fun read.

 

[Jim Nielsen]

I dont think that any of the scientists really know what is happening and what is the norm for the plannet. It has gone thru ice ages and thaws over its life. It had nothing to do with mummers polution in the past.
I do think it is good to conserv and clean up emissions. I remember when I was a kid the hiways were littered with garbage because people just threw stuff out of their cars. Now we know better and it looks much better. Proper disposal of chemicals so it doesnt get into water makes common sence.
I just have great issue with politicians who want to channel money to someone to remedy the latest climate theory. But you have Gore who gets an award but doesnt want to do his part. You have Kennedy wanting to be green but you can't build wind turbine generators in sight of his house. I think most common people now days try to limit polution. It is large companies that need to be watched for polution and over using the worlds resources.

.02
Jim

 

[Ian K]

The cooling cycle (and there are many who dispute that we are in a significant
cooling cycle if any at all) still has not brought temps down to where they were
11 years ago. The earth always goes through some periodic warming and cooling,
the problem is that the warming has gotten more severe, and the cooling less so,
such that the overall trend is rising temps.

The Birch Aquarium has some great info, including charts and graphs, some of
which superimpose the cooling trends over the long term trend. The steep upward
warming is pronounced.

Here is a nice FAQ:

:: CLIMATE CHANGE FAQ ::

The last one is most poignant - sea surface and deep ocean temps are also
rising, consistent with what is happening on land. As the FAQ points out, while
the science is inexact, that still doesn't mean we should ignore it.

Ian

 

[Dave Wood]

Ian, it seems like common physics that anything that is warming will continue to warm, even if by increments, when cooling cycles never take them significantly below the rising temps. My biggest objection to the whole debacle is the " absolution" that those that want to implement laws( read taxes) feel about what is not easily proven. Yes it is warming, but how much we contribute is open for much debate. Why is it always the individual that pays the tab and businesses benefit??? I was good friends with the guy that set up the first landfill in this area. They had calculated that it would last for over 100 years, yet because the businesses could then capitalize on the now "hidden" trash they converted to more disposable items. That landfill was full within 25 years...nice modeling. I think they have had 3 since and are now looking to export it to other areas...WHAT? IF we want to show sincere interest in some of the problems why aren't legislators looking at banning disposable bottles (they say that 30 million barrels of oil are used,yearly, to produce the bottles that designer water comes in) How about disposable diapers??? These are things that will have an impact regardless of whether or not climate change can be altered by man. It is the businesses that seem to benefit from any legislation that is introduced to "benefit" all of mankind. With the current fires in Ca and volcanoes erupting regularly in areas we can't see, how are we supposed to alter the impact of CO2 when these things produce far more in a short time than society likely does in a lifetime. If this momentum isn't altered for legislation, we will be enslaved for a long time. Start with the obvious. With the large number of malls that have popped up around the U.S., doesn't the absorbed heat from the day radiate back into the atmosphere at night...lessening the cooling effects? I can't speak about other areas, but here when they built the mall, they cleared easily 50+ acres of forest...I believe they make oxygen, don't they?? I look to our legislators to show me how the wrong way to do something is and then I do the correct thing, I don't have their lavish salaries and benefits to allow the number of poor decisions they make on a daily basis, they need a real job. I can see legislation that makes it mandatory to stop breathing 20 seconds of every hour to cut the CO2 gases we release. Of course to insure that everyone complies, we will need a special enforcement group. In Ca. they should be holding their breath until the fires are put out so as not to over contaminate the atmosphere with CO2 excess. Then there is our beloved space shuttle that generates more of the crap in one launch than the whole U.S. puts out in a year...but we can't cut that..that's why we need this legislation, so noble deeds like than can go on. There are other planets to pollute and unless we go there that can never happen...God Bless America.

 

[Ian K]

I With the current fires in Ca and volcanoes erupting regularly in areas we can't see, how are we supposed to alter the impact of CO2 when these things produce far more in a short time than society likely does in a lifetime.

I once had found a great article that addressed this specific point. Suffice it to say, based
upon analysis of the CO2 in the air, looking at the isotopes, evidence strongly suggests
that while wildfires and volcanoes do spew significant amounts of CO2 and pollutants into
the air, the effect is very temporary. Also, with respect to plants producing oxygen (O2),
that is only during the day, at night they produce CO2. Another point, the CO2 in the air
can be traced to its source with respect to fossil fuels or naturally occurring (again, by
analyzing the isotopes to see how "old" the carbon is). The amount of CO2 in the
atmosphere released by the burning of fossil fuels has increased dramatically, again,
moving the balance and natural warming/cooling cycles out of whack. Finally, the space
shuttle's exhaust is 97% water vapor. While not we do not know what the long term
effect it has (it creates a weird cloud condition / water ice condition at the poles), it
most likely is not as detrimental as CO2 and other pollutants.

Ian

 

[Cliff Beer]

O.K but what are you going to do about China? They don't give a shit about your good example.

Pete, I would disagree, I think China understands very clearly that their economy is tied extremely closely to the US economy - this provides some leverage to "encourage" the right behavior through economic and political/diplomatic means, in the event that simply "leading by example" doesn't produce results over the long haul.

To be more specific, I think you're right in that the Chinese government doesn't give much of a shite about the environment in general (except when they're hosting the summer Olympics!), but they do give a shite about the environment to the extent that what's happening in the environment affects their economics.

And, eventually, China develops over time and moves from a Third World country to a First World country thereby gaining a more educated middle class which becomes more aware of, and caring for, the environment. It's different than when the US/UK went through their Industrial Revolutions in the 18th/19th C. because at that time there wasn't any data, awareness or even much science available on the topic - there was little obvious downside to environmentally damaging practices.

Basically, China can be forced to play ball with economic strings tied to commerce. The big question, however, is do we have folks in Washington DC with enough nuts and backbone and leadership to make that happen??

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

The whole scenario boils down to people like Gore, that are looking for a huge payday, running around saying "the sky is falling". The governments of the world also seeing a way to raise unthinkable amounts of money through taxation, are going along with the notion, "you know, you're right the sky is falling". They've snowed lots of sheep into following this notion. Maybe BO in his talk to the school kids next week will mention this, (I can't believe he's doing that!) and scare the hell out of them too!

 

[Ian K]

They've snowed lots of sheep into following this notion.

Al, there are plenty of sheep on both sides of the fence.

Maybe BO in his talk to the school kids next week will mention this, (I can't believe he's doing that!) and scare the hell out of them too!

Yep, and he's going to talk about national health care, maybe bring up his birth certificate,
perhaps talk about what a crime water boarding is.

Did George Bush Sr. get this kind of response when he gave his anti-drug talk? For some
reason, I don't think so ...

Ian

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al, there are plenty of sheep on both sides of the fence.



Yep, and he's going to talk about national health care, maybe bring up his birth certificate,
perhaps talk about what a crime water boarding is.

Did George Bush Sr. get this kind of response when he gave his anti-drug talk? For some
reason, I don't think so ...

Ian

Like you said, it was an anti-drug talk. We will see!

 

[Ian K]

Like you said, it was an anti-drug talk. We will see!

It sure was, but he still didn't get this kind of grief leading up to it.

I also love the people who are upset that Obama is going to give a talk to
the schools, citing that such a thing hasn't happened since Hitler addressed
school children in Germany ...

Ian

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I guess it all depends on what he talks to them about! If he keeps government and politics out of the talk, I'm fine with that. We'll see!

 

[Cliff Beer]

Who gives a crap if Obama speaks directly to the children in the US? After all, we've got sports stars talking directly to children telling them "yo yo kids, don't do drugs" and "stay in skool" - the same sports stars that are also getting into bar fights, organizing dog fighting, having sex with prostitutes and countless DUIs and gun related violence. Obama looks like the Pope in comparison. Somehow I think he can handle it with the proper and appropriate delicacy.....

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

The Chairman of Carbon Sense, Mr Viv Forbes, said that an invading enemy could hardly do more damage to our ability to cope with future natural disasters than we are inflicting on ourselves.
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[email protected]
The Carbon Sense Coalition
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[Al Wohlstrom]

Nah Pete! That makes too much sense, "The sky is falling, break out the tax men"!