Derby Time Again!!!

Chris Kouba

Supporter
I just couldn't walk away... After being 0.2s off the course record last year, it was gnawing at me. When I did the math, the difference was about 8 feet at the finish line (less than 3 meters for you other people). If I was ~8' ahead of myself, I would have broken the record. I know I can do that.

So I entered again.

The compromise this year, with all the other things I have going on, is that I would recycle the car. I am re-entering the car from last year, with a few changes under the skin.

What might those be? The car pushed heavily through the Learning Curve. It was easily the worst handling car I had built (of like 7 or 8). It pushed so hard that I actually used the brakes into the Learning Curve, even on the final run (albeit ever so slightly). That's probably where I lost 8'. If the car handled like the others, it would have gotten around the curve without scrubbing so much speed and I would have been able to carry it across the finish line.

I did some investigation at the front end, and it turns out that I don't think I had enough Ackerman in the geometry. I cranked the steering (like I was going down the course) and rolled the front inner tire over a pair of greased up panels. The inner tire ended up pushing the free-floating panel in toward the center of the turn, which to me indicates that it wasn't turned sharply enough to compliment the outer tire. To this end I tore out the steering from the outer tie rods back to the steering wheel and completely re-did it.

I had a few geometric constraints, and when I tried for a center pivot bellcrank, the angles ended up creating a toggle mechanism, basically locking up the steering once I got the desired travel. That clearly wouldn't work. Back to the drawing board, I went old school and tied the two uprights together directly, and then connected a bellcrank to that. In the proof of concept stage of the design, I revisited the greasy panel test, and this time the floating panel was pulled outward from the center of the turn, indicating a bit of excess Ackerman. I assume this will not be as detrimental as the push from the original geometry and that it will also require less steering input to negotiate the corner now. Time will tell.

In other news, I also have a new pusher, Brandon, and we had a practice session this past weekend. A good start is 10+ MPH after the 10 yards, and he was able to consistently get at least 12+, including several mid-13's as measured by GPS. This bodes well.

So not a lot of pics for the build thread this year, but still looking forward to an exciting day of the hill. My dad will be in town for it as well and I'm sure he'll have a great time. If anyone is local (or just passing through), it's all day long at Mt Tabor on the east side of Portland on August 19th. If you make it to the park, you won't miss it. The heats are supposed to start around 9, but usually run behind schedule. There is no admission and food and beverages (yes, beer) are available in the park. It's quite the day!

Chris

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Randy V

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Rubbing palms together briskly!!
YES!!!!!
Very excited to hear that you’re giving it another go….
Ackerman and Anti-Ackerman have been almost a black art in suspension and steering design for many decades.
It gets particularly exciting when you start working your caster / camber into the equation and then season it with weight transfer and slip..
Are you going to be stiffening up the suspension?
 

Chris Kouba

Supporter
Thanks Larry. It's a great event and quite addictive.

The suspension is already quite stiff, especially in the front, Randy. It's only there to smooth out the massive impacts from the potholes- I nearly was launched off the course one year. It keeps those forces in check, doesn't do much for the base ride quality.

Kevin- Here's the final from 2019, when we were the top 3 qualifiers, won our brackets, and swept the podium. It was shot from the car which came in third. I am on the left at the start and the 2nd place car on the right.


If you look at the left front wheel of the camera car, you can see where Andreas taps the brakes (~17s in) and any shot he had of winning went away.

I don't have footage from the inside during a heat... It's pretty cozy in there and there's not much room for anything but me in the car.
 
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Randy V

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Very fast steering…. Might a bigger steering wheel give you more precise control when you hit bumps (which would tend to skew the steering) ?
Okay - I’ll turn the engineer in me to the “off” mode now and just watch and enjoy…
 
Hate to be "that guy", but could you side step all of this and have one steering wheel in the front and 2 in the back? Or are the rules dictating this design.
 

Chris Kouba

Supporter
Rules are wide open- at least 3 wheels in contact with ground at all times and less than 5' wide, 12' long, 8' tall, and 300# without driver. The 2F1R layout feels like it'd be more stable than the 1F2R. It's just a feeling or guess at this point though as I've never done a full build the other way.

I did start one though... but I didn't put enough effort into the mechanicals so they didn't work from packaging perspective. The 2F1R is a bit easier in that respect.

If you think that ratio is fast, you should see some of the earlier ones Randy! The constraint is balancing the limits of the space within the bodywork with the quantity of lock needed to make the Learning Curve. It'd be a lot easier if I could fit an actual rack in the car, but the goals of a real steering wheel and minimized frontal area are conflicting.
 

Randy V

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After watching the video again, I realized that you didn’t take advantage of the draft by tucking in behind one of the other cars. That draft zone is actually a lot longer than you may realize.
 

Chris Kouba

Supporter
Ha!! I was the one out in front. My buddy Andreas was driving the camera car... That would have been his only hope- jumping in behind Alyssa and using the draft of the open cockpit car to at least claim 2nd. He was in it more for the experience than the win though and was very happy just running down the hill.

I had a pusher error on one heat in 2018 where I only got about 3 paces of push, slowly leaving the starting box behind the other two entries in the my first elimination round. You can bet that I used every bit of draft I could to claw my way back past them. I didn't really need to worry though, as they were more art car than speed car and I easily passed both of them and moved on to the next round.
 
I don't think there's a difference inherently in stability unless the CG is high. The tricycle layout got a bad rap because of the early ATV three wheelers. Under hard braking, you're on the one front tire, and it'll inevitabley make it turn and roll you over. The reverse setup is less stable in hard acceleration when you're on one tire.

Also, having the cg closer to the single tire decreases stability.

Cool project. You have a winner with just a little tweaking.
 

Neil

Supporter
I don't think there's a difference inherently in stability unless the CG is high. The tricycle layout got a bad rap because of the early ATV three wheelers. Under hard braking, you're on the one front tire, and it'll inevitabley make it turn and roll you over. The reverse setup is less stable in hard acceleration when you're on one tire.

Also, having the cg closer to the single tire decreases stability.

Cool project. You have a winner with just a little tweaking.
The 3-wheel layout is constantly being re-invented. It is inherently flawed because the end with 1 wheel has ZERO roll resistance.
 

Chris Kouba

Supporter
It's easier when it's a 160# car but it should work reasonably well enough for a 7. It's just about completely explained in the snippet you quoted:

  1. Put some grease on two (preferably thin) panels so they slide well on each other.
  2. Place the panels in front of the inside tire (stacked, with the greased face to greased face, in case that wasn't obvious).
  3. Cut steering wheel to the range you're interested in checking the Ackerman.
  4. Roll vehicle onto the panels.
  5. Observe what happens as the vehicle moves across.

Basic test interpretations that I've been using. If they're wrong, please let me know.
  • The bigger the panel, the better the testing opportunity.
  • Top panel moves inward, inner wheel isn't turning as much as the outer (not enough Ackerman).
  • Top panel moves outward, inner wheel is turning more than the outer.
  • No panel movement relative to each other- Ackerman is perfect!
My little car is small enough that I actually used crushed ice between the panels. This may not be in play for a powered vehicle, but it was very insightful for my little car.

My problem was the car pushed way more than the any I have ever built. I am hoping this will cure that issue. Give me a call when you want to try it, I'd be curious to go through it with you and see if it works with a bigger test subject.
 

Chris Kouba

Supporter
Thinking about this more, Jim, if you have a flat piece of plate steel and spill a bunch of BB's on the floor, it would be equally as effective if the floor is flat enough. I'd bet other similarly creative solutions exist as well.
 

Chris Kouba

Supporter
Things have been wrapped up with the steering mechanicals and it's on to alignment day:

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I went with perfectly parallel, or as close as I could get with a tape measure, a laser, and some string.

After that fun was had, I installed a strut to hold up the canopy after realizing I had left it out of the original build. We had a delay during a heat last year and a buddy ended up holding the canopy open for me for ~25m. Much nicer to have it stay up, although the 2019 car is still the best in this respect with its gas strut to lift it up.

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Next on the list is a chassis tune- check the wheel balance, prep the bearings, adjust the brakes, re-install the aero bits, and SEND IT!
 
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Neil

Supporter
Things have been wrapped up with the steering mechanicals and it's on to alignment day:

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AIL4fc_27NSTjdVO54PSa-ICjOKnzq6qRVuwE_AmGKBszSfdQ-uSLlAbFOEbyRBuW3E_flsLdfHcg4T_Ha2lN8jixQCdgyVm_FisvU_VLfV7_378ltS20_BMlj_1QkizM42YEdQnMWtKfqb5xE2aYF4mhGWSOA=w458-h611-s-no


I went with perfectly parallel, or as close as I could get with a tape measure, a laser, and some string.

After that fun was had, I installed a strut to hold up the canopy after realizing I had left it out of the original build. We had a delay during a heat last year and a buddy ended up holding the canopy open for me for ~25m. Much nicer to have it stay up, although the 2019 car is still the best in this respect with its gas strut to lift it up.

AIL4fc-UPwjGuL2dyHSckzQ4SYcfaGwOIT6gcJGlU3RHI8eENWViIhsMlFbnQlBPuHnFKRqJORweXQZhkKXXQoDMHXtJfppx0wnpQPieviPRg4KqGAoPbBw7Jnr3DdxKrI0TxS2cA6ALPLBe-DhANxG6KOGVRQ=w815-h611-s-no


Next on the list is a chassis tune- check the wheel balance, prep the bearing, adjust the brakes, re-install the aero bits, and SEND IT!
A couple of degrees of toe-in might make the front end more stable without creating much rolling resistance.
 
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