Is the right to bear arms outdated.

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
I like the Hello Kitty gun, but I suspect it is not a licensed Sanrio product. That's okay, a friend of mine found a Hello Kitty bong on eBay and it wasn't licensed either....

I'm going to be the first to say that I am no firearm expert. The gun on the left looks like a hunting rifle to me, and the one on the right looks like an assault weapon. Based on that, I'd say the left hand gun is okay. Obviously this is likely to be a trick question and plays on my ignorance- but you knew that already.

Maybe this statement will make a few folks feel better. Here goes,keeping in mind this is holiday season and we should be beating our swords into plowshares, or at least objects that resemble plowshares...


We (and men in particular) have fascination with hobbies that involve dangerous toys- cars, ATVs, boats, motorcycles, planes, guns- you name it. I participate enthusiastically in a lot of those hobbies and I am the first to admit I love them. Although I've done recreational shooting, I am not a gun owner (currently) but I have enjoyed it in the past. I am certainly not one of the folks who think that no one ought to have firearms except police officers, military, etc. Not in this country.

I do feel that our hobbies ought to be pursued in such a way that they don't endanger other people- that's my gripe with assault weapons and their related hardware. I think someone who flies down the road in their fast car and endangers everyone else's life is wrong.

We don't have an acceptable and strong enough method to regulate guns in this country. We have "laws" that require the gun shop to ask stupid questions like "are you mentally ill?" when you buy a gun. Ridiculous. Who answers "yes" to that?

What we need is a way to protect the population, and arming everyone is not the answer. It isn't fair to thrust gun ownership and gun use on all the people who are NOT interested in having guns around, who don't shoot, who are not gun hobbyists- that's the reason that the argument that ends with everyone carrying a firearm is a bullshit argument. It doesn't work. I'm an emergency doctor. I don't want to carry a gun to work- or anywhere else.

If you accept the idea that you can't make the population totally safe- that there is no way to do that- then you have to say, okay, what can we practically and reasonably do to make the population safer? And what measure are most effective, if you accept that there are ALWAYS going to be crazy people who want to kill a lot of folks and get on the news?

Well, there are some things we can do: we can make guns harder for mentally ill people to get- we can't make it impossible, but we can make it harder.

We can make guns safer, by removing semi-auto guns and assault weapons from the general population.

We can make vulnerable populations, like children, safer by stepping up guarding and protection around schools.

We can make mass murder less attractive to crazy people by imposing a set of rules which restrict media coverage and prevent them from celebrating (in effect) the mass murderers themselves.

And if you think gun owners don't want restrictions, wait til you try to shut the media up! They've turned Newtown into a media camp for the last week. But their attention paid to the shootings is beyond doubt what Adam Lanza wanted, and got. Hopefully he's too busy being broiled alive in hell to pay attention to the television down there.

The argument that a gun is a device which is solely for killing people is unfair to guns and gun owners. I think the real question here is this: where's the balance point in all this? I will suggest that far from beating this to death, these kinds of debates are what we need to get to an area of common ground which everyone can live with.

I am not, incidentally, a control freak, and although I am liberal on some points, I am not liberal on all points. I agree that our law allows us the right to own firearms. It's up to us, fellow car enthusiasts, and everyone else, to interpret that law in a way that preserves maximum safety for the maximum number of people while allowing the free exercise of that right for anyone who wants it.

We are past the point, at least I think we are, where a well-regulated militia is essential. The Founders did not likely see that their experiment in democracy would result in the founding of the most powerful country in world history. What we now have to do, as a unified group, is determine what the Second Amendment means in the 21st century and apply that meaning.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Jimbo,

I have to agree with much of what you say. We had a slightly similar problem here in the SF Bay area, the Golden Gate Bridge.

It a beautiful thing and it attracts alot of attention, it also attracts suicides, lots of them. When I was growing up every few days there would be an article in the papaer about another jumper...............

Then as we neared "special numbers" like 300th or 500th jumper, news coverage increased and jumpers increased.

Starting around 30 years ago, all the news outlets in this area voluntarily agreed to stop talking about it, today for the most part, we never hear about jumpers and although they still jump, the number has delined dramaticlly.

****************************

I just heard an interesting radio conversation, about another way to lessen the number and lethality of guns.

They were calling for required gun insurance. Just as cars are required to have insurance, gun owner would be required to purchase liability insurance. The more guns, the more insurance cost.

The high powered assault guns would cost more to insure, guns with large clips, more cost..........

The cost would of course be set by insurance companies, but I think this most recent mass murder would cost that Insurance Company big bucks, as it should, so the fees would be set accordingly.

For that reason to get this type of insurance, the underwriter would insist on proof of secure storage, training, trigger locks, a clean police record, a clean mental health record..............and check every year for changes!

Just as with cars, any guns found without proof of insurance would be impounded!

There are no Second Amendment problems and if a gun is way too dangerous, no one would insure it and no one could have one, simple and that!

Folks here have been comparing guns to cars, great, lets treat them like cars!
 
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Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
I think the insurance idea has merit. I pay a lot of money to insure a fleet of cars as a hobby. I think the insurance companies might do a lot of the regulation work which would make things a lot safer for everyone.

We have a bridge like that here- the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. I don't think it attracts the numbers that the GGB does, but they try not to talk about it too much. The attention that it attracts does not serve the public interest, I agree with you.
 
They should close that damn bridge, totally irresponsible! All those damn bridge crossers,they're to blame! If the bridge was gone the suicides would stop. Close the bridge!
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
They should close that damn bridge, totally irresponsible! All those damn bridge crossers,they're to blame! If the bridge was gone the suicides would stop. Close the bridge!

Tom, you need to give more thought to your analogies.

These are suicides, no one makes a huge stink about gun suicides, do they?

Now Tom, if large groups of Children were being THROWN off the Bridge, then they would make a huge stink, right?
 
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Tom, you need to give more thought to your analogies.

These are suicides, no one makes a huge stink about gun suicides, do they?

Now Tom, if large groups of Children were being THROWN off the Bridge, then they would make a huge stink, right?

No they are not suicides, but the firearm suicides are nearly twice the number of firearm homicides per 100k. It's not the bridge doing the killing just as it's not the firearms doing the killing, it's people. I'm not trying to under emphasize the killing of innocent children, but where was all the outrage after the Fort Hood terrorist killed our people. You are very predictable, a day or so after the Dear Leader speaks, you will say the same.
 
Jack,

They don't have Trolls, but the do have Tolls:)

What do you think of the insurance plan?

Jim, not "internet trolls" but:
A troll is a supernatural being in Norse mythology and Scandinavian folklore. In origin, troll may have been a negative synonym for a jötunn (plural jötnar), a being in Norse mythology. In Old Norse sources, beings described as trolls dwell in isolated rocks, mountains, or caves, live together in small family units, and are rarely helpful to human beings.

You asked about the insurance plan. It would keep me broke with the premiums. Enforceable, I think not. Interesting thought though.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
TomP,

I'm having a hard time understanding what you are saying.

Do you mean folks who jump off the Golden Gate Bridge are not suicides?

You say I'm predictable?

Predictable, because I'm upset about scores of children being slaughtered? Who would think?
 
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I don't like the insurance angle. There are too many cars on the road that don't have insurance and the rest have to pay more for insurance for uninsured motorist. Meaning, if I did pay for insurance because I am a law abiding citizen, how many will not have insurance that I will have to pay for? This will only punish those that are law abiding citizens as the people using guns to do harm to others will not think or care to buy insurance. Especially if they plan to kill themselves at the end of their murder.
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
What we now have to do...is determine what the Second Amendment means in the 21st century and apply that meaning.

Why do we "have to do" that? It means exactly the same now as it did when it was written over 200 years ago, Doc! It says directly in plain, simple English that we have the right - the RIGHT - to keep and bear arms and that right shall not be infringed. Attaching some 'new interpretation' to what The Founders meant by that at this stage of the game is akin to drivers determining what the green light up ahead ought to mean in the 21st century and then following that interpretation when addressing the intersection.

Those who don't like what the amendment says should work to get it repealed or changed to reflect their '21st century interpretation' of what they think it should mean.

Good luck with that! ;)
 
I like the Hello Kitty gun, but I suspect it is not a licensed Sanrio product. That's okay, a friend of mine found a Hello Kitty bong on eBay and it wasn't licensed either....

I'm going to be the first to say that I am no firearm expert. The gun on the left looks like a hunting rifle to me, and the one on the right looks like an assault weapon. Based on that, I'd say the left hand gun is okay. Obviously this is likely to be a trick question and plays on my ignorance- but you knew that already.

Jim,

Would you believe that neither one of those is an "assault rifles." Those two rifles are in fact.....the same rifle, but with different stocks. The are both, just semi-auto Ruger mini-14 rifles, one with a wood stock and one with an adjustable synthetic stock.

You made a great point about the media. Very similar to something I said about the sensationalism of the reports. Even though we have free speech, one can not yell, "fire" in a crowded theater unless there is an actual fire. With rights come responsibilities.
I agree that the lawful gun owners need to make sure the firearms are secured when they sre not home, mine are. I am for thorough background checks to prevent unlawful people from buying guns.

The problems I have when there is a battle cry for more restrictions are: not prosecuting criminals and handing out stiff AND mandatory sentences; not enforcing laws already on the books; using the guise of making it safer to push an antigun agenda when the government does not do the first two items; and people not admitting that an outright ban will not fix the problem (which is why I have repeatedly mentioned cocaine and heroin and that murder is already illegal.)

As a gun owners we are constantly hearing more restrictions and banning x,y & z but yet existing laws are not enforced. And as a non-gun owner, I'm guessing (I could be wrong) that you were not aware of the mandatory minimum sentences regarding lying on the 4473 and that very few are prosecuted for it. Now as a gun owner, for the felons who are actually stupid enough to do this, it makes my blood boil knowing that law enforcement only did part of their job. The other part is prosecution of a felon and removing him from society. It should make your blood boil also because the government is acknowledging a bad person committed a crime, and yet refused to protect us. As I stated, the government has made statements how the background checks prevented so many felons from buying guns, fantastic! But where is the second part?

When the prosecution and conviction of those felons reach 50% (I believe it is less than 1%) and when our judicial system gets tough on criminals then we will: make society safer and maybe we'll be able to trust the government a little more.

Have a good night,
Dan
 

David Morton

Lifetime Supporter
Americans - I guess you should all know how a majority of the rest of the world looks at your predicament and it is rapidly becoming a 'done deal'.
Only your military will have the right to bear arms.
The rest of the world looks to the U.S.A.to sort it's house out and stop these senseless slaughters.
Obama cannot be re-elected so this is one -and probably the biggest- reform of any of the
so called amendments he can make and he will go down in history when he does it.
So whether I agree or disagree is neither here nor there.
'Wake up and smell the coffee'.
If you posess a gun and there is no justifiable reason, and you attempt to keep it ,
you are part of the problem.
 

Dave Wood

Lifetime Supporter
I haven't posted for several years, a lot of home issues. I didn't expect that this would be the thread I would start again ( the transaxle scam was calling though).
I was a Marine brat, to say the least, I was around all sorts of artillery/weapons. I lived in 18 homes by the time I was 18 and some of those areas were civil war period areas. There were many cannons sitting on personal property, knowing their mechanisms, it wouldn't have taken much to get them operational. I was never concerned about that. It was common for school mates to have guns in their vehicles openly displayed. Still, never had concerns. I feel the second ammendment entitles american citizens the right to possess whatever is available to the military, it's intent is to allow citizens to disarm the government if needed. It has less to do with hunting and everything to do with that. Nazi germany had extremely strict gun laws, and those found with them were labeled terrorist and undesirables. They were jailed if they were lucky and worse if they weren't.
While it is a tragic situation, I find it personally offensive that when we as a military might use drones, missiles and "smart bombs" to hit targets in other countries and kill small children it is labeled collateral damage. Speaks of an american attitude I find appalling.
If you just analyze the gun aspect of it, it looks simple, get rid of scary guns. I would suggest that we might want to look a little deeper. Most, if not all of these shooters (all the way back to Colombine) had been on psycho active drugs to "help" them. We continually address the issues of alchohol and drug use amongst teenagers, yet we seem to feel that these perscription drugs are harmless, I don't think they are and until we stop allowing our young people to be doped up events like this will continue.
 

Keith

Moderator
Oh dear.....

But given that guns have been an important part of the American 'way' of life since it's inception, it's hardly surprising.

What WILL be surprising is if there is a popular movement to reduce gun ownership by The People (We). One can only hope. It's going to be the only way it could work.

Guns have never played an important part in Britain. Some people have them, most don't. Importantly, the most that don't - don't even want one - it's just a different mindset.

We have a far bloodier history than many nations where the weapon of choice was a bow, an axe, a billhook, a sword, but even then, the average citizen did not even own a sword.

What still amazes me though, is that every time there is a gun 'amnesty' in the UK (we have them every so often) you would not believe the number of weapons and types that get handed in! I believe many of them stem from 'foreign adventures' by the military.
 

Keith

Moderator
Stop Press..

The NRA are to give a 'major press conference' in the next hour.

Highly unusual - I wonder what they will say?
 
They have been talking about this press conference all week. Personally, I think they were wise to wait until all the facts came in before they said anything... unlike the general media which got so many things wrong early on.
 
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