Anyone know what heads/valve covers these are?

[Ron Earp]

Ben, just be careful about the crate engines. There are horror stories on the Ford and GM forums about new crate engines being disassembled and clearances being wrong and so on. I just noticed you are in England and the American motor parts there seem to be about 2-3x more expensive than they are here. However, there are some good builders there and I bet you'd find some that warrant their work and could put together a fully dressed and tested motor for you.

As far as "different", well I know the wankel drum has been beat already with some other threads. I doubt a Porsche flat six would fit that well as they are quite wide. The Dodge V10 is doing to be expensive and it isn't small for sure, but it is different....let's see, rare and overhead cam, how about a Ford 427 Cammer?

427 SOHC "Cammer" by Legendary Ford Magazine | SuperMotors.net

Unique it would be. And with modern parts being made for these engines you can assemble one for "reasonable" dollars.

 

[Al Jones]

Ron,if you go back to the 1st page,you'll see I had asked that question but no one has yet responded as to whether it will fit.The engine is BIG.A friend of mine who lives about a mile from me has one that has just been 'freshened' up.IF Fran was willing to try shoe-horning this thing in and IF some property I have part interest in goes before spring,I could go talk to my buddy.The motor was to go into a 65 Comet AFX(forerunner of pro-stock) but is just sitting there at the moment. A.J.

 

[Ron Earp]

Ron,if you go back to the 1st page,you'll see I had asked that question but no one has yet responded as to whether it will fit.The engine is BIG.

Ahh, missed that. They are really large but it might be easier to fit than a V10, maybe. the SLC is tight though and that is one thing the LS series is about unbeatable on - horsepower per cubic foot.

 

[Ben Whittle]

Ron,if you go back to the 1st page,you'll see I had asked that question but no one has yet responded as to whether it will fit.The engine is BIG.A friend of mine who lives about a mile from me has one that has just been 'freshened' up.IF Fran was willing to try shoe-horning this thing in and IF some property I have part interest in goes before spring,I could go talk to my buddy.The motor was to go into a 65 Comet AFX(forerunner of pro-stock) but is just sitting there at the moment. A.J.

If the Cammer engine has the same dimensions as the 5.4 DOHC the general concensus seems to be that it will fit but requires some modification of the frame but, do not take my word on that, its pure speculation on my behalf, as always, run it by Fran first.

Power per cubic foot, an interesting measurement but valid! :laugh: And yes the LS series does seem to be on a winner there :thumbsup:

 

[Don Dunham]

Fran,
Could you adapt the Ricardo to this and fit it to your t70 MK3B chassis?

 

[Ben Whittle]

High Performance Machine Shop

Interesting.... seems that 'Russ Arao' has sparked some interesting debates as well.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Seems that Arao Engineering has struck a bad chord with a few members of this forum and others due to lack of order completion. I don't know if it's been resolved, but I'd double check. Just my $.02 on the matter. I know the idea is solid and the work looks insane and the power potential is astronomical. I just wish they didn't have the issues they have and it'd be a no brainer. Well that and the price. LOL

What about the Coates Heads? Heard of them? Rotary Valves? Need an explaination? Go here...

Welcome to Coates International Ltd.

Laters,

Brian

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Here's a little more info from the Coates site...


"The Coates Spherical Rotary Valve Engine is the most advanced in the world, with the most positive valving system ever built. The breathing capabilities of the system are almost double that of a poppet valve. For instance: a static test of a five-litre poppet valve engine on an airflow machine produced a reading of 133 cubic feet per minute (CFM) with valve fully opened. The five-litre Coates Spherical Rotary Valve Engine on the same machine, however, produced a reading of 319 CFMs fully opened; a colossal advantage in airflow comparison. A five-litre poppet vavle engine tested on a dynomometer under the same loads and conditions at 5500 produced 480 BHP and 454 foot pounds of torque. The maximum RPMs on the poppet valve engine were 5700 RPMs; the Spherical Rotary Valve Engine in comparison reached 14,850 RPM's, The Coates Spherical Rotary Valve comprises two spherical rotary valves assembled on two separate shafts - one for inlet and one for exhaust. They rotate on ceramic carbon bearing with no oil lubrication, the spheres do not make contact with any part of the housing. The seals are a floating type and are also made of a ceramic material. They have two piston rings and are floating in a small cylinder-type chamber, they are activated by the compression and the combustion strokes of the engine which allows 100 percent sealing effectiveness, when compressed.

Because the valves rotate away from the combustion chamber and are vented and charged on the opposite side of each sphere, this creates a lower combustion chamber temperature, allowing for higher compression ratios to be used thus creating an extremely efficient engine. Some of the Coates Spherical Rotary Combustion Engines are at 12 to 1, 13 to 1, 14 to 1 and 15 to 1 compression ratios depending on the application."


And YES, they used a 5.0L Ford from a Mustang in a junk yard. I read up on this technology a few years back and it gave the whole story. Pretty insane huh?

 

[Al Jones]

Brian,this type of engine in similar forms has been in use in model airplanes for some time.They are in the same range as poppet valve types.Two advantages would be 1) no valve float at high r's due to a revolving mass rather than a rebounding mass moving in a single plane,and 2)the ability to tailor the intake/exhaust profiles exactly without ramping concerns.I would imagine the two weaknesses or at least maintenance factors would be:1)the rotating seals and2)the absolute intolerance for ingesting anything,especially getting any abrasive material in the carbon/ceramic bearing.

 

[TimB]

I have heard of the coates system for years but never actually seen a set on any 302. If they are as great and trouble free as they say I would suspect they would be more widely used.

 

[Ben Whittle]

So what makes an engine idle (IMO) badly? I'm guessing it's squarely down to the cam?

I know this is an entirely different engine but this is a perfect example of how I would much prefer my engine to sound (before the cam swap) to how (IMO) the engine SHOULDN'T sound (after the cam swap):

before and after frpp cams idle- Video

But what is it about the cam that creates that lopey affect?

I notice you can get the LS3 with GM's 'hot cam', will that LS3 sound like the above after the cam change? Are there any cam's that you can get which genuinely do maintain a smooth idle whilst producing more power?

How bad/good would the stock LS3 cam be for supercharging?

 

[Al Jones]

Ben, everything is a trade off or a compromise.If you want high rpm horsepower the low end,idle and low speed pull or torque, is going to suffer and vice versa.Essentially,the overlap of the cam intake and exhaust profiles determines how severely the incoming fuel mixture and velocity will be affected at lower engine speeds.That is the condition when both valves are off their seats while transitioning from one cycle to another,e.g.,exhaust to intake, with the resultant incoming charge dilution,spit back and atomization drop out,With the valves off their seats longer,hence a 'long duration cam',the combustion chamber is affected by charge dilution and scavenging from other cylinders,both intake and exhaust.Until there is sufficient inertia to the incoming or exiting air columns as rpm increases,there will be a disruption of flow into and from the chamber,resulting in erratic firing from varying mixture densities which you interpret as a 'bad' or rough idle.Actually that rough idle is somewhat of a status symbol among hot rod groups,indicating a modified/more powerful engine.Comp Cams markets a line designed to give a rougher,meaner sounding idle. One solution to obtaining more power without going to extreme profile cams has been supercharging(mech or turbo) which allows more charge to be crammed into the cylinder without long valve openings,however the two are often used in conjunction with each other to produce copious amounts of power.This usually occurs at the expense of engine longevity. If I've told you something you already are aware of,sorry for wasting space. A.J.

 

[Ben Whittle]

AJ that was word for word perfect, I now understand, thank you!

The thing is, don't get me wrong when I say 'bad', let me clarify, on say a '33 roadster I totally agree, heck, even through in some blower surge into the mix, I'd LOVE a '33 roadster that is rough and mean even though it's not my usual scene....

....but on a car like the Corvette......really? Seriously? It's supposed to be a supercar, could you really see it lining up with a rough as hell cam along side the likes of a Ferrari F430? A Lamborghini Gallardo? Really? I'm more of a supercar person and so thats what I mean when I say 'bad'.

Thanks for the explanation again, it was spot on!

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi Ben -

Let's not forget that most modern cars, Inc F430 and some Lamborghini have variable cam timing on both inlet and exhaust. They can alter opening /closing times of each cam, often separate to each other and also have other trick items in the exhaust and inlet manifold. (eg variable length inlet tracts) So most Supercars of today will most definately sound different to the Muscle Cars of yesterday...

(they all sound good in their own way to me...:thumbsup

Some additional material below regarding camshaft operation:

Camshafts Explained

Camshafts Part II - Single Overhead Cam, Dual Overhead Cam and Pushrod Engines

Camshafts Part III - Variable Valve Timing: MIVEC, VVT-I, VVL, VANOS, Double

 

[Paul Osborn]

...Actually that rough idle is somewhat of a status symbol among hot rod groups,indicating a modified/more powerful engine...

DEFinately!

That lopey cam says, "I've done work on this motor. DO NOT make me prove it to you in front of your friends!"

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Hi Ben -

Let's not forget that most modern cars, Inc F430 and some Lamborghini have variable cam timing on both inlet and exhaust. They can alter opening /closing times of each cam, often separate to each other and also have other trick items in the exhaust and inlet manifold. (eg variable length inlet tracts) So most Supercars of today will most definately sound different to the Muscle Cars of yesterday...

Some vehicles with variable cam timing can be tuned in the ECU and you can lock the cams at full advance or retard. Once you do that, then you hear the "real" profile of the cams and I can tell you that an old 500E Mercedes sounds MEAN when you do that. LOL I forgot how he did it, either with the ECU or something, but it was impressive.

 

[Don Dunham]

THE "Cammer" is 31.625" wide. The Boss 429 is 29" wide. I got lotsa toolz ta make 'em fit! Here are some shots of a 10.3" deck Boss 429s.
Cheers
Don Dunham

 

[egoman/ Shawn Wedge]

That supercharged boss looks like it would be a little down on power for a 2ooolb car.Now if you put on the lower blower pulley then it should move it along quite smartly.When I raced dirt track sprints the motors made about 750 hp and weighed about 1300lbs.If that boss motor made 1500hp(it should easily)then if you kept the car weight under 2600lbs,the car should have acceptable acceleration.........BARELY.

 

[Don Dunham]

That supercharged boss looks like it would be a little down on power for a 2ooolb car.Now if you put on the lower blower pulley then it should move it along quite smartly.When I raced dirt track sprints the motors made about 750 hp and weighed about 1300lbs.If that boss motor made 1500hp(it should easily)then if you kept the car weight under 2600lbs,the car should have acceptable acceleration.........BARELY.

Actually, Egoman, The Gibson/Miller Blown 604 should make about 3,000 h.p. with 45 lbs. boost on Meth (a hell of a drug). I will probably not use the huffer and use a Kinsler EFI Stack Injector-good for a sluggish 950h.p.

Regards,
Don Dunham

 

[Don Dunham]

Everytime I show up on track day, the tech guys keep mentioning something about a Test and Tune day!?