Attempt to join Audi tranny to ford bellhousing

Eric,

Try a local shop or wrecking yard for a FREE disk. They're bound to have one bad that you can get at no cost.

Be sure to send the jig with the trans when it's ready. I'd like to document the whole experiment if it works. This would be of benefit to others, including the clutch experiment.

Have fun!

John
 
Eric,

Give a call to Clutch Masters http://www.clutchmasters.com/shop/?page=shop/index&ps_session=e47da58d630f03599124379402c44e69

They are old time SoCal hotrodders, and do some custom work. Maybe they can make a 10.5" disc to fit. Are you sure about the spline? AFAIK, the Audi 016 and the 01E both use the 15/16"-23 spline hub. Anyway, it would be worth a try. Ask for Jose; great guy. BTW, the 240mm Audi 5000 clutch disc is the same diameter as the Porsche 930 clutch disc.

Andy
 
I found a hub, the spline on the 016 is 13/16 x 24. The 01e is a larger spline 15/16 x 23. I will giive them a try before i do what i have planned, thanks. Oh, and the tranny is done being welded, if i can get the ambition to shrink the pics i will post them here.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Question - you've got the Ford style bellhousing welded to the Audi box, right? This will allow you to use, hopefully, a Ford flyhweel and cluth. However, from folks that have done this a lot with Ford V8s the clutch isn't a problem with the Audi box - it handles all the power you can throw at it. So, it seems that this might be going to a lot of trouble to get that clutch and flywheel.

One of the problems with the Audi box is the interior sections that hold the bearings. These can deform under stress and are not easy to repair. Essentially becoming warped and twisted. So, the downside of this is that you've got a bellhousing that might end up welded onto part of the case that is unrepariable after use.

I'm not trying to put down the effort, I think it is great, I suppose I'm playing more of devils advocate here. It would be nice to use standard Ford bits, but the Audi box adapters are readily available now from Kennedy I think (I know a year after this started). The guys I've talked to running the Audi don't complain about the clutch nor the box, unless it gets drag raced or they're complaining about the ultra short first.
 
It is partially a cheap experiment for installing my g50 6 spd, partly for the hell of it. It wont be any cheaper than buying an adapter plate and doing it that way. It is just nice to know also that stuff like, if the starter goes, you can find one at any corner gas station, the flywheel, nothing special, the clutch disc, dont ask, the pressure plate will be a normal 302 pressure plate. I dont really know what the pedal effort is with the Kennedy setup but at least i do know how this one will be. Besides, someone told me it couldnt be done.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I found a hub, the spline on the 016 is 13/16 x 24. The 01e is a larger spline 15/16 x 23. I will giive them a try before i do what i have planned, thanks. Oh, and the tranny is done being welded, if i can get the ambition to shrink the pics i will post them here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric,

When I visited Kennedy, I was under the impression they told me they were the same. Now after looking at their site, it appears they are as you say; different. I measured the 01E 6 speed, so I am certain it is a 15/16"-23 spline and that a 240mm disc is available. I have never personally measured the 016.

I'm looking forward to the pictures, if you're able to post them. Cudos to you on your fearless persuit!!

Ron, I think the one argument for this adaptation is the use of a standard Ford starter against a large ring gear to turn over a high compression motor. The starter for the Ford/016 adaption uses a Toyota 22R truck unit, or so I was told.

Andy
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Hey, if they told you it couldn't be done that is good enough reason!

Starters are all different. The ones on the RF cars seem to have no trouble turning over high compression (11:1) motors as that is all I've seen bolted to them. I don't know about 14:1 etc, but I don't think it would be a problem. CAVs seem to work fine too with a similar (but different starter motor) setup.
 
AJS
thanks for the clutchmasters tip, $175 for a street/strip type clutch disc and they can build it no problem.
 
Re: Attempt to join Audi tranny to ford bellhousin

I'm not exactly sure what parts your welding from your description, but Aluminum like the 6061 you talk about is hardened by heat treatment and welding anneals the weld area and ruins the hardening. Cast alloy trans cases also have hardening treatment which is negated by welding.

the 6061 should have a designation following like 6061-T6

6061 T6 is about 3 to 4 times as strong as 6061 in a unhardened condition, which is what you have after welding.

You can re-heat treat after welding in most cases provided the alloys welded are the same, which is unlikely with 6061 plate and trans castings. If you do heat treat after welding machine afterwards as the heat treat usually causes warpage. This can be very problematic when it comes to trans cases which typically should not be welded.
 
Re: Attempt to join Audi tranny to ford bellhousin

Eric,

While following your project, some thoughts occurred to me after reading Kalun_D's response. Aluminum cast tooling plate such as MIC-6, might have been a more desirable selection for the flat plate. It is stress relieved (so negligible distortion after machining), weldable, mostly free of porosity, and the tensile and yield are quite good. I have used it in many tooling applications especially where post machining stress relieving is not practical. Cast tooling plate comes blanchard ground, so it is very flat, unlike rolled plate (6061, etc). Compatability in terms of welding and CTA might be more favorable for your application. Cast tooling plate is commonly available at most aluminum supply houses. When I make my adapter, I will likely use it. I will probably HeliCoil the threads as well.

Cheers,

Andy
 
Re: Attempt to join Audi tranny to ford bellhousin

I need to post some pics as to how little of the plate actually remains, for the most part, both bellhousings end up being welded directly together, except in the starter area, the plate makes a nice dust cover.
 
Re: Attempt to join Audi tranny to ford bellhousin

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade, especially looking at all the effort that's been spent. It's my fault for not catching this thread earlier.

Welding trans cases is probably a viable option provided it's done properly. But here's what you have to consider.

Welding aluminum and retaining the original strength is a very tricky proposition. The welder is only concerned with one thing, the integrity of the weld, like appearance and lack of occlusions etc., he's not concerned or even necessarily knowledgeable about the comparative strength of the piece.

What you need to know.

A. the alloy of each piece and whether or not it's heat treated.

B. the alloy of the weld filler rod and it's strength.

After further research I don't think heat treatment of the assembly after welding is an option because warpage exceeds the tolerances of the bearing bores in the cases and typical filler rods do not respond to heat treatment.

If the pieces are originally heat treated you may not loose that much strength depending on what level it's heat treated to.

A continuous welded seam all the way around a bellhousing case seems to me like a link in a chain. That case is only going to be as strong as that weld, which can be researched starting with the filler rod alloy specs.

Furthermore it's possible, depending on the alloys of the bellhousing and transaxle that the area adjacent to the weld is even weaker than the filler rod, depending on the alloy and whether it was heat treat hardened.

Some things I've learned since first posting to this thread.

typical casting alloys and their mechanical properties, the F stands for unhardened condition

Chart at bottom of page

http://www.alumalloy.com/specs.html

Cases should be jigged to a solid holding fixture for weld pre-heat and welding. More specific info is in "Performance Welding" by Richard Finch.

and here's what my welder friend had to say.

start quote

the casting alloys typically used are

354, 355, 356, 357

Best bet is to clean both pieces completely, including a soak in some
strong solvents to remove any grease imbedded in the surface.

Jig them up, preheat both pieces up to about 500 degF, and TIG weld
using 4047 filler rod.

When the welds are done wrap in wool blankets or bury in Vermiculite or
powdered lime to keep in the heat and allow them to cool very slowly.

Vermiculite can be bought very cheap at garden supply stores.
Dump a bunch in a steel 55 gal barrel, drop in your piece and dump in
enough vermiculite to cover the part.
Dig it out the next day.

end quote

This could all be academic if your primary consideration is cost. Because the price of a Ford clutch/flywheel compared to say a Porsche setup is considerable. And if you look at your setup and decide that even if the case breaks it won't be a safety issue because the transaxle will remain captive and not lock up the rear wheels then more power to you. Been there done that.
 
Re: Attempt to join Audi tranny to ford bellhousin

I know it is straight, I can guarantee that. I know that the strength of welding 2 peices of cast aluminum together can possibly be called in to question. Will it be just as strong, who knows, will it be strong enough, i beleive so. The welder did all that you spoke of, i cleaned it in muratic acid. I have to say, in all honesty, I dont really beleive there will be enough force on it to break it. But it will be fun to try. I do know next time i would do it a bit differently in order to not have to rely on the welder.
I am curious what you do for a living as you seem very knowledgeable in metallurgy. If that is the case, then i have another Q. for you.
 
Re: Attempt to join Audi tranny to ford bellhousin

Hi all,

Thr rebuild on this 016 project might be finished this weekend if Eric isn't under the weather. I hope he's doing better now.

We'll let you know as things progress.

Have fun! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

John
 
Well, other than bolting the tranny to a car and trying to blow it up, the ford bellhousing and audi tranny are now 1 peice, albeit a little ugly, the weld area needs some grinding. I set the tranny up in the milling machine and re-machined the face of the ford bellhousing after everything was welded. There was about .020" difference from the lowest point to the highest, i cut .025" off just to be safe. As for warping, the tranny itself i know has come out good as i put the thing together with the old bearings first and checked the ring gear bearing preload and backlash, they were perfect.
So a few things i learned along the way.
1. The stock audi pilot bearing presses in nicely to the ford pilot bearing carrier (made of some soft bronze/brass like material, maybe bronze oilite). I only had a used carrier so it was a little wonky from being removed but i just cleaned it up with a file to get rid of some burs and the bearing went in like butter. Not sure if you used a new carrier if you need to do any filing or not, but it is very slight anyways. If you dont file, when the two are pressed together and slid onto the shaft, it is really tight.
2. My favourite part of the whole process was joing the audi throwout bearing fork assembly with the ford throwout bearing. I was surprised at how well that fit. Remove all the audi bearing and guts from the holder, remove the ford bearing from its holder till all you have is the inner and outer race. The sleeve of the ford release bearing fit perfectly over the sleeve of the audi. Cut the ford on off so that the area that the snap ring goes into is at the right hight, slide the inner onto the audi peice, a little tack weld and perfect. Next, all you need is a little shim to go in between the bearing inner race and the base of the audi fork so that the load is supported right. Hard to understand without having the bits apart but it worked beautifully.
Lastly, the cost. It is not cheap. I did all the machine work myself which was many days of machining, a reciprocating saw i toasted along with a number of blades trying to cut a 302 down to a V4 to use as a template for the welder instead of lugging the whole motor around, (it was still just as heavy) but i havent included that in the prices.
Aluminum plate- $110
Welding-$350
ford bellhousing-$50
pilot bearing -$25
throwout bearing-$30
Other stuff needed but not part of the swap
tranny-$110
bearings, seals, gaskets,synchros -$375
The clutch can be made by these guys www.clutchmasters.com i think they quoted $150 for a good street/strip clutch.
And in the end, you can use the ford starter, flywheel and pressure plate.
John Stone is putting it in his car, when it is done, i guess we will know if all that "aluminum is not strong after it is welded" talk holds true.
If anyone is interested in trying it, drop me an email and i will help with what i can, but it is a hell of alot of work that i am not interested in doing again.
 
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