Audi Ring &Pinions

[DMatt]

In our never ending search to find a source for gears for the 016 transaxle, I found a company in Memphis Tenn called Gear& Mechine Specialty C0. www.specialtygear.com
I spoke with Glen Sipe. He seemed very knowlegable with Ford GT 40's. He has made gears for Holman Moody in the past for some of the car they have worked on. I called him to see if he could help us out with our R&P problems. He was not fimiliar with the 016 but felt sure he could make anything we could dream up. He asked me to send him a R&P so he could take a look and give me a ballpark price. He also says he could make up LSD.

I am hoping someone has a damaged R&P to send to Glen. It does not have to be in working order. It can be missing teeth or just about anything else, just so he can see what is involved in fabricating new gears.

The gears can be sent to:
Gear & Machine Specialty Co.
1958 Kirby Road
Memphis Tenn. 38119
901-754-5589

Feel free to call him. Maybe someone who is really up on this stuff can do a better job of picking his brain than I can.

If you can do it, send me a P/M and I will pay for the shipping.

 

[Mitch D]

Dan, did anyone contact you further on this? I'm in the early planning stages for chasis #136 (I'll see it sometime Q1 2006). I have chatted with a man named John at German Transaxle in Portland, OR. John said he has talked to a guy in Australia (not affiliated with RF) and his price for making up some R and P's is dependent on qty. One will run about $3000 since you'll pay for design and setup, (5) will go about $1500, and 10-15 would get unit price down to $500-1000. Sorry I don't have a part to send for analysis, but I'm curious if anyone followed up with you at all.

Regards,
Mitch

 

[Ron Earp]

This is something we need to get on and start moving. $500-$1000 is starting to get reasonable, but I bet we could easily sell 25-30 sets given the number of people doing this. That ought to get the price down to around $400-$500 a set which is very good. If we had a choice of ratio it'd be worth it. Someone with some time should post the speeds at RPM for various ratios with the common 016 boxes then call a vote for ratio choice. Once done we could collect committments and get it going.

Ron

 

[Charlie M]

I'll buy a set if the price hits the $400-$500 range.

Charlie

 

[DMatt]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Hey Guys, here is the latest.

I have not had any luck in locating a R&P to send to Gear & Mechine in Memphis. I called John today at German Trans and asked if he had one he could send. As luck would have it he sent his to a guy in Oz for the same reason we need one. He is going to try to get it back and send it to Memphis. So now we could potentially (sp) have 3 sources for our R&P's, Roberts man, the new guy in Oz and one in the states. It seems like this is going to take a while to play out. I have to go to the "big city" on Thursday and maybe I can poke around a few import trans shops while I'm there. If we all can get out and beat the bushes when ever we have a few extra minutes, maybe we can get past the first step of finding a 016 R&P to use as a template. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Mitch D]

Sounds like we have plenty of folks interested in the pursuit of making the 016 code AAZ or 5N more suitable with a new final drive. I've seen plenty of posts with people searching for the 3U (not quite the holy grail but it appears troublesomely rare), but I just don't know anyone in Germany or Europe with whom to start an intercontinental transmission migration. As for deciding on a final drive ratio, here's a site where you can download a neat little calculator. Looks to me like a final drive around 3.70 to 3.75 gets the 5N to have mph & engine speeds closer to the 3U. Maybe some other folks can weigh in with their opinions so we can come to some sort of consensus.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/mult_rally_speed_computer/mult_rally_speed_computer.htm

Note that you can use it for up to a 6 spd. Only drawback is the sliding scale only goes to 180 mph, but for our calculation purposes (i.e. typical highway driving speeds up to 75ish), it's perfectly suitable to show engine speeds.

Mitch D

PS - I forgot to point everyone back to the gear chart posted before from Gary Gibbs. You can find it on the Builders Forum, look at the thread Re:ROARING FORTIES #43. The chart shows ratios for all the Audi boxes (and many others)

 

[Mike Dozier]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Mitch

Not sure what you mean. The AFC and 5N are already 3.89
or 4.11 final...so 3.70 is still too high.
We were looking at installing the 3.37 parts from a 944
but they were too different, and the cost to rework the Audi
case pushed the total cost over $ 2,500....not what I had in mind.

What we need is for someone to make an 016 compliant set (with no case mods) BUT copy the 3.37 Porsche gear geometry.

Dan

German Transaxle had a 3.37 in stock last time I spoke to them...but I don't have an extra $ 1200 to fund this project. I can probably come up with a used 4.11 016 set if GTA doesn't have a busted set laying around.

MikeD

 

[Mitch D]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Hi, Mike, I thought the idea here was to use the Audi 016 box code AAZ or 5N and come up with the new and appropriate ring and pinion to get the engine speeds down to a reasonable level. From the gear chart I had available (showing 4.11 final drive), it looks like the engine would be turning about 3300-3500 rpms in 5th gear when cruising at 75mph. This seems high. Everyone always seems to talk about the type 3U as a better solution, so my first thoughts were to get the speeds to more closely tie to that box (about 2700rpm for 75mph in 5th gear). I don't have any experience in tearing down or rebuilding transaxles, but I know how to calculate speed from gear ratios. I was just picking 3.7 as a start point to note that it gets things closer to the 3U speeds/rpms by gear. I believe the goal is to just come up with a custom and appropriate ring and pinion to be fitted into the readily available 5N and AAZ boxes. I spoke with John at GTA and he said getting a new final drive is the solution approach. Am I going down the wrong path here?

 

[DMatt]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Mike,

If you can send your R&P to the address I listed in my first post we can get an ides from Glen Sipe as to what we are looking at for a price. Send me a PM with the shipping cost and I will send you a check. I will also ask Glen to ship your gears back to you.

I would think that we need to give him a ratio that we want in order to get a firm price, so lets discuss and finalize what we want while these gears are on the way to his shop.

I will call Glen tomorrow and let him know the gears are coming.

One more question. Did John @ GTA indicate that he could make the Porsche R&P work in the 016 for $1200.00? Just courious...

Mitch D. In the little bit or research I have done it seems clear that the final drive solution is the way to go.

 

[Mike Dozier]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Mitch

The 3U box is better than the AFC/5N for highway use since it has a lower ratio 5th gear. But the other 4 gears in the
3U are really no better than the AFC/5N...just too steep
compared to normal V-8 gearboxes.

RF40 sells a low 5th gear set to convert any AFC/5N, which helps...but long term solution wants to be as low (numerically) a final drive we can fit in the 016. Obviously a 3.37 is doable....since Porsche sells it. Something lower may be doable...but someone would have to engineer it...and there are dimensional limits on how
much lower you can make ring/pinion ratios.

Dan

Yes. GTA indicated they could supply me a rebuilt 016
with the 3.37 for "around" $ 2500. Before I pull my ring
and pinion (it's still in the trans), does Glen understand
the pinion gear on the 016 includes the entire shaft?
Believe there was a photo on an earlier post.
If not I can scan a page from my Haynes Manual.
Thx

MikeD

 

[DMatt]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Mike, I don't know if he is aware of pinion being part of the shaft. I did not know it was all one piece. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif My hope was when I called him that he was fimilier with the 016, but he had not worked on one before, and I have never seen one either.Maybe we could send him a scan of the gear and shaft and go from there. I asumed that the R&P you had was already out of the trans. It seems like a lot of work to take apart the entire assembly just to get an estimate for something that might not work out. I'll keep looking for R&P and maybe John from GTA will get his back from Oz

Did GTA's price of $2500.00 include a LSD?

 

[Mitch D]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Clearly, this topic has some interest. I just had a follow up call with John at German Transaxle.

First, I had been assuming that an 016 box was Audi only - apparently not true, porsche also uses the 016 in 944's and 924's (I use the lowercase ‘p’ to show my disgust with this "truck company" - they sell 2x more cayennes than all other models combined, thus the honeymoon with my carrera cab is over!)

To the point – John at GTA confirms the new final drive implies ring gear and pinion gear/shaft. He has taken appropriate measurements and in talks with his Australian supplier they conclude they can go to a 3:17 and fit in the Audi 016 type 5N box. As I’ve said before, the first one is the pricey one (pushing $3000 for the new final drive not including the rebuild 016 itself), but needed to get a working “prototype box” that someone can drive and conclude as effective. Then the goal is to machine more rings/pinions. He re-stated, if we can get (15) or more ordered, the cost goes to $700-1000 per (so not necessarily as low a price as Ron speculated earlier in this thread). The fitment of this new R&P would require minor machining of the case.

John said the porsche parts just won’t fit in the Audi box, hence the proposed solution of new final drive made to fit the Audi transaxle.

 

[Bill Hara]

Here is my own ratio/speed calculator (above) for you guys to play with. I have to update it for 6 speed boxes.

Bill.

 

[Mike Dozier]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Mitch

The 924 and 944 versions have similarities, but not close enough. The Audi version is the only one in GT40 service.
John is pretty knowledgable...so I have no reason to doubt
what he tells us on these trannies. A 3.17 ratio would be
cool...let's see what he comes back with pricewise.

Dan

I'll e-mail you a scanned page, and a photo from E-bay.
Maybe it will give Glen some idea what's involved.
Thx

MikeD

 

[Mitch D]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Mike, I'm not expecting to hear anything else from John at GTA. He has told us his prices (see in this thread). It's now upon us to decide if we want to get some orders to him. Someone needs to step up to get the process started - i.e. place at least one order to have a unit built and/or have several of us line up with orders. The only open item on this thread is for someone to follow up with Glen Sipe at Gear and Machine in TN. Did Mike or anyone decide to send an R&P there?

Mitch

 

[Mike Dozier]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Mitch

Good luck getting a volunteer to front $ 3000 for GTA's
first set. IMHO, they should take the initiative.
Then again maybe we're overestimating the market...

I spoke to Glen Sipe. I don't think we're going to get
gearsets from his company for $ 500 regardless of volume.
However it's worth the effort to see what it would cost.

MikeD

 

[DMatt]

Mike makes a good point about GTA taking the initiave. They may have already done so given the fact that John sent a stock R&P to Oz.

First, we might as well face the FACT that it's going to take more than we want to pay to get a new R&P and LSD. That being said lets find out how much it is actually going to cost. Lets ask John how much the transaxles would be with the componants we want if we put a deposit on 10 complete units, minus shipping which would be different for each of us. That way he will have the task of finding the best price for the components in order to get a price that we will buy at. John should be able to get a much better price for the R&P than any of us can.

We could also get a package price on just the R&P's & LSD's for the guys that want to assemble it themselves.

Any thoughts?

 

[Mitch D]

Re: Audi Ring &Pinions

Hi, Dan, you should have pm from me unless I botched it.

Mitch D