:thumbsup: Battle of the kit supercars - FFCars.com - Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum :thumbsup:
Battlecry..!!!!!
- Thread starter gt40fran
- Start date
You big bully, picking on little old Factory Five.
The GTM may not have the outright performance that the SL-C does but they do have lots of track time with the car under their belts and thats worth way more than a quick lap time...
I would imagine good drivers and a decent downforce set-up would close that gap. If I read correctly, the SL-C being used has a peak HP of 700 while the GTM-R is around 400HP peak. I am not familiar with what track the race will take place on but on the straights the SL-C will have a overwhelming advantages. However, keeping traction will be key and lack of track layout will be disadvantageous. From design, I think the SL-C will certainly out corner the GTM though.
Hey Fran, is any one going to record the event?
Ryeno,
I am really looking forward to the race but I have to agree with Fran that on track experience in the long haul is worth more than top speed. Remember, it is not a sprint race, the car has to race for 25 hours. I am sure there will be a lot of valuable lessons learned in 25 hours worth of race time for a new car/team. While the SLC has may have a peak of 700 HP it may come at a price in terms of reliability. The other issue at stake is the torque curves of both engines - remember the old adage: HP sells cars, torque wins races. Not having seen the torque curves for both engines, the gearing, and the aerodynamic efficiency of both chassis, it's hard to really predict the performance over a long race. All that being said, I hope the SLC kicks butt
John
I am really looking forward to the race but I have to agree with Fran that on track experience in the long haul is worth more than top speed. Remember, it is not a sprint race, the car has to race for 25 hours. I am sure there will be a lot of valuable lessons learned in 25 hours worth of race time for a new car/team. While the SLC has may have a peak of 700 HP it may come at a price in terms of reliability. The other issue at stake is the torque curves of both engines - remember the old adage: HP sells cars, torque wins races. Not having seen the torque curves for both engines, the gearing, and the aerodynamic efficiency of both chassis, it's hard to really predict the performance over a long race. All that being said, I hope the SLC kicks butt
John
Howard Jones
Supporter
I run this track about twice a year, It' s 3 mile +, 2 min lap in a very good B production type car. Just to give you all some perspective, my best lap in my GT40 on street tires is about 2.18. With slicks I think I could get that down to about 2.13 -2.15 safely. Lap records are well under that and I've seen 1.30 sec laps run by F Atlantic cars. I think the outright lap record Is in fact held by a pro F Atlantic team testing there a few years ago in the 1 twenties. That is VERY quick. This track will reward down force with two very fast corners and a long slightly slower sweeper. The 3 big brake zones will also reward a high down force car.
It's a safe place, few walls, with lots of run off so mistakes usually won't put you put out of the race, unless it rains, then going off will result in deep stickly mud up to your ass. The length of the lap will spread out a field of 40 cars pretty well and there are three very good braking points to pass. At night there is really only headlights so that can be a factor.
The trick is not to break it and get to the last hour within a lap or two of the lead. The performance advantage of the SLC that Fran is bringing could eat up 2 or 3 laps in an hour if needed. I think that if the extra stops for fuel can be balanced with lap times and then get to the end within striking distance then it's a slam dunk. Otherwise we'll see what else shows up. I know that there has been a DP car run at this event in the past but I don't believe it finished.
This should be fun.
It's a safe place, few walls, with lots of run off so mistakes usually won't put you put out of the race, unless it rains, then going off will result in deep stickly mud up to your ass. The length of the lap will spread out a field of 40 cars pretty well and there are three very good braking points to pass. At night there is really only headlights so that can be a factor.
The trick is not to break it and get to the last hour within a lap or two of the lead. The performance advantage of the SLC that Fran is bringing could eat up 2 or 3 laps in an hour if needed. I think that if the extra stops for fuel can be balanced with lap times and then get to the end within striking distance then it's a slam dunk. Otherwise we'll see what else shows up. I know that there has been a DP car run at this event in the past but I don't believe it finished.
This should be fun.
That is a good point Howard. I know the GTM-R has two fuel cells for about 40 gallons total... more than twice that of the SL-C. That coupled with the likely inferior mpg's of substantially more power, the SL-C will definately need an outright performance advantage to make up lost time in the pits.
Howard Jones
Supporter
As far as the diffuser goes, if the bottom of the car is closed up to allow for a completely flat bottom and clean approach to the diffuser inlet area then think it will produce some down force. The real down force will come from that huge rear wing and the well designed nose of the car.
I intend to run mine a low as possible slightly nose down, seal up the bottom, run the diffuser with a added center element, and as much wing as will balance out. Later I am thinking front canards, and possibly a soft seal to the track along the sides.
Without a way to measure it, not to mention that the car isn't running yet, I really can't tell you HOW MUCH down force it will produce. But Since I have a GT40 that produces a couple of hundred pounds of LIFT, I can tell you that I am hoping for several hundred pounds total.
More is better.
I intend to run mine a low as possible slightly nose down, seal up the bottom, run the diffuser with a added center element, and as much wing as will balance out. Later I am thinking front canards, and possibly a soft seal to the track along the sides.
Without a way to measure it, not to mention that the car isn't running yet, I really can't tell you HOW MUCH down force it will produce. But Since I have a GT40 that produces a couple of hundred pounds of LIFT, I can tell you that I am hoping for several hundred pounds total.
More is better.
Ryeno,
I am really looking forward to the race but I have to agree with Fran that on track experience in the long haul is worth more than top speed. Remember, it is not a sprint race, the car has to race for 25 hours. I am sure there will be a lot of valuable lessons learned in 25 hours worth of race time for a new car/team. While the SLC has may have a peak of 700 HP it may come at a price in terms of reliability. The other issue at stake is the torque curves of both engines - remember the old adage: HP sells cars, torque wins races. Not having seen the torque curves for both engines, the gearing, and the aerodynamic efficiency of both chassis, it's hard to really predict the performance over a long race. All that being said, I hope the SLC kicks butt
John
I was not aware this was a competition of endurance so that changes everything I had perceived. The outcome wil be quite interesting.
Damn those little 1200LB F cars can hustle!
The car has fully flat floor with an aluminum diffuser...
All of the aero parts on the car are available for any SL-C ...Selig rear wing, front fender louvres,race front splitter...so nothing that you guys cant just call up and purchase...
You dont need tunnels to create downforce...all ALMS cars are flat floor ..its a combination of elements that will help make sufficient downforce..
The car will not have a 700hp tune for sure...much closer to 550hp I think...it will be softened for reliability...it will be tuned for torque figures with plenty to keep the tyres honest...and make them howl...
I will list a full spec on the car when we get a little closer to race day.....
All of the aero parts on the car are available for any SL-C ...Selig rear wing, front fender louvres,race front splitter...so nothing that you guys cant just call up and purchase...
You dont need tunnels to create downforce...all ALMS cars are flat floor ..its a combination of elements that will help make sufficient downforce..
The car will not have a 700hp tune for sure...much closer to 550hp I think...it will be softened for reliability...it will be tuned for torque figures with plenty to keep the tyres honest...and make them howl...
I will list a full spec on the car when we get a little closer to race day.....
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ES ..NASA catch all for non conforming or highly modified production...
Maybe the driver could start last, in the rain and after standing on his head under the dash! Worked for Fran. LOL.
Ron Earp
Admin
Excellent. NASA does a much better job with "open" sorts of classes than the SCCA. Of course, NASA has classes for cars down to their color scheme, but for races like this it allows you to get just about any car on the grid that meets NASA safety rules.
Sounds like it'll be a great time. I hope the SLC runs well and the team gets a good finish.
As was stated over on the FFR forum, we truly are looking forward to this event, as we do every year, and having an SLC on the track just makes this years event that much more interesting.
Also, as was stated over on FFCars, we, Team PDG, will do whatever we can to help you guys/gals out should you need something. Ask anyone we have been in a points battle with and they will tell you that we bend over backwards to make sure the race is settled on the track and not by bad luck. We have rewelded a competitors rear sub frame so he could get out the next session and beat us for the year end points championship in SCCA sprint races last year, and we have come to the aid of the current NASA WERC points leader, while trying to defend our WERC Championship, just last week. This probably had the effect that we have a very slim chance of beating him now, but simply put, it's how we do things. We'll race you straight up and do what we can to help a fellow competitor.
Fran, you mentioned that you are "damned if you win and damned if you don't..." As, I have said before, while the reason you end up beating us may very well be that you spend more money to go faster, I will not hold that against you or the SLC team that does it. Going faster is what racing is about. So far we have met some pretty seriously fast competition and done pretty well. If that situation changes, we aren't going to whine and complain about what was spent to go faster. We will either step up our game and budget, or be happy finishing behind an SLC. Bet you can guess which one we will choose!
Fran, I know you and I have butted heads, well, just about everytime I have posted "over here" or you have posted "over there", and I just want to say, again, as I think I always have, that I admire what you build. It is a hell of a kit car and probably far and away more of a race car than the GTM is in "stock" trim. I am looking forward to the race, forward to this SLC hopefully forcing us to get faster, and, above all, to having a great time this 25 Hours Of Thunderhill.
BTW- Just for reference, the GTMs fastest time at TH is a low 1:52. We probably won't be running this fast during the 25, but since those numbers are publically available and it had been discussed, I figured I would save whoever is interested the work of having to dig that info up.
Also, as was stated over on FFCars, we, Team PDG, will do whatever we can to help you guys/gals out should you need something. Ask anyone we have been in a points battle with and they will tell you that we bend over backwards to make sure the race is settled on the track and not by bad luck. We have rewelded a competitors rear sub frame so he could get out the next session and beat us for the year end points championship in SCCA sprint races last year, and we have come to the aid of the current NASA WERC points leader, while trying to defend our WERC Championship, just last week. This probably had the effect that we have a very slim chance of beating him now, but simply put, it's how we do things. We'll race you straight up and do what we can to help a fellow competitor.
Fran, you mentioned that you are "damned if you win and damned if you don't..." As, I have said before, while the reason you end up beating us may very well be that you spend more money to go faster, I will not hold that against you or the SLC team that does it. Going faster is what racing is about. So far we have met some pretty seriously fast competition and done pretty well. If that situation changes, we aren't going to whine and complain about what was spent to go faster. We will either step up our game and budget, or be happy finishing behind an SLC. Bet you can guess which one we will choose!
Fran, I know you and I have butted heads, well, just about everytime I have posted "over here" or you have posted "over there", and I just want to say, again, as I think I always have, that I admire what you build. It is a hell of a kit car and probably far and away more of a race car than the GTM is in "stock" trim. I am looking forward to the race, forward to this SLC hopefully forcing us to get faster, and, above all, to having a great time this 25 Hours Of Thunderhill.
BTW- Just for reference, the GTMs fastest time at TH is a low 1:52. We probably won't be running this fast during the 25, but since those numbers are publically available and it had been discussed, I figured I would save whoever is interested the work of having to dig that info up.
Ron Earp
Admin
Oh and I should probably add that that 1:52 was on DOT Kumhos....during a race!
None of you fellows are racing slicks are you?
DOT Hoosier R6s or Kumhos are fairly serious race tires and will net pretty good times for cars like these.
