Body Mods and Other ?s

[Mike Dozier]

Newbie

You've asked several questions that cross
many different topics, so I'll just generalize to keep my thoughts short:

1. I like open cars also, but the prevailing
philosophy is simply to install A/C to
keep the GT40 cool. Ford did make some
open top GT40's but they just don't seem
to look as good. Tornado Sportcars sells
removable tops, but I've never seen one.

2. Big blocks take up more space, weigh more,
costs more, and require more expensive
transmissions, shafts, etc to support.
And since vast majority of GT40s came
with small blocks, a small block is more
original.

3. Performance = $$$. How fast do you want
to go? GT40's weigh close to a Cobra,
so performance is similar. Of course
top speed of the GT40 is higher (given
same gearing and HP) due to aerodynamics.

4. As far as reading is concerned there are
a couple you can get from Classic Motorbooks dedicated to GT40s, and of course
this Forum has lot's of good info.

Good luck!

MikeDD

 

[Guest]

GT3 Corp. will/is offering an open top MK III roadster. I saw the car last week in Florida and it has some real nice features in appearance, functionality and ease of construction. Call 561-334-9555, web site should be available soon.

 

[Ron Earp]

I'll be short, I hope.

Keep in mind the GT40 is a road race car - it is not a drag car so 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are not its' major strength. That being said, there are plently of cars built turning <5 sec 0-60 and 115-135! terminal speeds in the quarter. Do a search on this topic and you'll find some posts. If you're after big block bragging rights you'd be better served by a Cobra - even if the GT40 might match it with a built SB.

Handling on the 40 should be much better than the general Cobra, but I'm sure some prepped ones are quite good as well.

Ron

 

[Ian K]

Tornado and GTD both had options for
removable roof panels IIRC. ALso, I'm
sure there are some "aftermarket" places
that can help you out (Thunderbird Racing?)

Ian

 

[Guest]

Matt, Ron is ever the diplomat. A Cobra and the F-4 Phantom Jet fighter are very similar. It has been said that the F-4 proves that given enough thrust a brick can be made to fly. Sort of the same thing with a Cobra, but better not get the Cobra too fast or it will fly, literally. 150mph is pretty much univerally accepted as the sane outer limits of the envelope for a Cobra.

To address weight, most replicas (SBF) weigh in the neighboorhood of 2200lb. Big block cars weigh more, obviously. GT Supercars' chassis (based in Ohio), both mono and space frame, will take all 3 families of Ford V8s and ERA makes a model that will take a big block. Realistically, most don't find the extra weight worth it. You can build a SBF that, in this car, will put your pucker factor up to 15 on a scale of 1:10.

GT40 Australia makes a Mk III tilt out/take out window kit (if you can get them to respond to inquiries). I don't know why none of the other makers do?? A/C is offered in virtually all of the cars, so heat does not need to be an issue.

Ron is a diplomat AND he knows what he is talking about. You see where people have run their GT40s in 1/4 miles (Rick Mertz in Kit Car's Run and Gun comes to mind) but this car is not a drag car. If you buy a kit, I suppose you can make it into one, but it was designed for the road with a high reving engine and a fairly high geared transmission. Clearly, high speed, handling and longevity were the goals of its development.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Actually, some of the original cars were made with removable roof panels for the reason you describe- several of the Safir GT40s had a setup where the top part of the door could be removed, and some of the photos in the books show cars running with the roof panels out.
I think most of the heat problem in a GT40 is due to marginal ventilation, which is due to the lack of side windows that open. I hope to put sliding panel windows ala 1019 in mine, but it will also have AC. At least, when you are in a GT40, you are not sitting UNDER the windshield and baking in the sun, like you would be in a Boxer or some other similar cars I could name. Painting the car a lighter color helps a bit, although most of us don't seem to do that.
As far as the big block, I agree with Ron- if you want a car that supports a big block engine, you are better off with a 427 Cobra than trying to shoehorn it into a GT40. It will fit, but these are not straight-line cars, even though they are fast in a straight line, and putting a big block in one misses the point. A moderately built small-block car with the right ratios will do over 160- how fast do you need to go?

 

John Woerderheide here in Atlanta has a GT40 "spyder" that he races. I'll try to get a picture to post. cb

 

I believe CAV is coming out with a sypder version of the GT40 late this year.

 

Hi,
I'm a newbie to this forum, but have been at some other sites quite a bit like the cobra forum.

I really like the GT40s, but was wondering (even if it constitutes blasphemy

) if anyone has ever sort of made a t-top or targa top out of the top of the gt40, because I've heard they're notoriously hot and havent seen windows that offer much-plus I like the "open-air" feel. (like a removable hard top from the top of the windshield to the back of the driver's seat)

I realize that the doors have the roof panels that come out with the door when you open it and that would probably make it difficult to do, but wanted to ask anyway.

Also, do people not use big blocks in the gt40s? Havent heard much about that-

How much does a finished car weigh and what kind of times can you expect from one? 0-60, 1/4.

Any suggested sites or reading? I appreciate any advice or directions to postings, links, etc.

Any events in Indiana/Kentucky/Ohio or other states in the vincinity coming up that would have a lot of gt40's I could check out?

Thanks for any and all info, I look forward to learning more about this gorgeous car...

 

[40 Bud]

If you want to have more power than the typical 302/347 0pt for a stroker 351. If you have enough money you can dyno over 600hp out of these, with torque to match. Off course you will have to us a bullet proof gear box for this. An easy way to improve vintilation is to install 3" snap vents in the side windows. I put mine in the upper front corner. They work great.

 

[MWGT40]

I have emailed you a short MPEG of Ray Christopher's GTD Spyder. Ray designed the original GTD and, to the best of my knowledge, runs the only spyder version of the GTD in the UK. THE MPEG features it in action at a hillclimb in Isle of Man this year.

As for your question on 0-60 times, note that a number of the GTDs in the UK manage this in under 4 seconds.

Martin

 

Thanks everyone, for all the input- I agree that the cobra and GT40 are two different breeds, I probably shouldnt try to compare the two much, but given that I've been researching cobras for awhile, it was an easy mistake for me to make.

I guess I had wondered if the GT40's mid engine would allow the bb to be better utilized since there wouldnt be as much "front" weight which tends to make the car feel like it is pushing through the turns more- I'm not really concerned about high or top speeds, I dont go over 100 unless I'm on a track or under special circumstances, so that's why I was more concerned of making the most out of the driving speeds and torque, hence the question on 0-60 times.

Personally, for "wow" factor, I like the GT40, and if it handles better than the Cobra, I might even prefer it. The only thing was the fact I liked the convertible "open" feel of the cobra combined with the power, etc- but if a GT40 can be altered, I may end up shelling out the extra $$$ to do so.

I'll probably go ahead and build up a 351W since I liked that engine for either car. Any suggestions on things to remember or rebuild/parts differences I might consider if I was going to use the engine in a gt40 as opposed to a cobra?

Also, it was mentioned of a gt40 place in Ohio? I'm in Dayton/Cincinnati quite a bit, is that anywhere near any GT40 owners/companies? I would appreciate any leads to go take a look at these cars either in Indiana, Kentucky, or Ohio, etc-

Any suggested readings on the GT40's? Or other websites? I wouldn't mind more pictures, or eye candy if you will-

Thanks again for everything, and its nice to know that there are so many enthusiasts so ready to help out a "newbie"...

-MaTT

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: MaTTerZ ]

 

Matt,

If you visit the GT40 Enthusiasts Club web site, there is a link called 'GT40s and replicas' under which there is an unfeasably large collection of books, videos, models etc etc listed....

Neil

 

I just noticed Wayne Presley's photo albums that he posted on another topic in this forum- VERY NICE! I've not seen such an extensive compilation of such fine cars and pictures anywhere yet- Hats off to what I'm sure took a lot of work to put together!
-MaTT

 

[Gary Gibbs]

The engine is a matter of taste. There is a ton of aftermarket HP parts for the 302/351 and much less for the 427/FE.

As far as weight is concerned they are not as different as you might thing. My 427 block weighs 200 lbs and the new shelby Aluminum FE block is 145 lbs. The new dart (extra strong) small block (351 based) is 225 lbs

I do not know the weight of the SVO 351 aluminum block but would guess it is ~140 lbs or so. My complete 452 CI cast iron block FE engine with all aluminum heads, intake, water pump, alternator, etc. weighs 503 lbs (no flywheel or starter). Thus the all aluminum version using a Shelby block should weigh ~425-430 lbs. I am not sure what the equivalent all aluminum 351 would weigh, but would guess a little bit less (never owned one to weigh but would love to hear from someone who does).

Looks like with the new dart 351W based block one could go with a 4.185" bore and 4.0" stroke (still oversquare) and get ~440 CI.

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: CCX33911 ]

 

[Steve Toner]

ERA has an interesting engine page on their website. Here is what they have to say about weight:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> With the current parts available, we have measured the weight of a complete aluminum 427 to be as low as 460 lbs, 20 less than a 289 iron small block. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But further down the page it says a '65 289 weighs 465 lbs

I also found this through a Google search: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> - A C5AE 289 block weighs 125# with main caps and bolts, .040 over, no freeze or pipe plugs or cam bearings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Gary Gibbs]

I have seen a lot of different posts on the web about engine weight. Most of the tables list engine types and weights, but you have no idea what the engine has on it (e.g. aluminum heads.) I can tell you for instance that the cast iron (BIG boat anchor) 2 bl intake for my FE is about the most worthless use of cast iron I have ever seen. It weighs something like 65 lbs and is a 2 bl !!!! Lets talk HP to weight ratio there. If I took the same FE and replaced the Dove heads with cast iron and put that intake on, and went back to the cast iron water pump the engine weight would go up something like 120 lbs!

I would love to see a nice list of engine and component weights that was accurate and documented. I know my race car scales are accurate to a few lbs and I know exactly what was on the engine when I weighed it. With other info you read you have no idea.

 

[Mike Dozier]

The additional weight of an FE motor is not as bad as the additional weight of the wheel
barrow of cash you'll have to fork out for
the engine, aluminum heads, and the extra
beefy drivetain to hold it.

MikeDD

 

In terms of weight, am I going to be paying big $$$ for the aluminum parts?

How much more will aluminum heads and other parts cost in comparison to their heavier iron counterparts? I'm sure it is probably worth the difference, just wondering how much more I'll have to fork up-

Such is the reason I thought going with a bb would be better- it may start off heavier but also has more power stock and may require fewer or less extensive/high maintenance mods to get the same results as a built sb.

I've been looking at the CAV sites and so far have been impressed with the quality- is it feasible to assume I'll spend around $60k after doing the engine work myself (what I can anyway) and hunting down the right parts at the right prices?

Any CAV Gt40's around Indiana, Kentucky, or Ohio? I may have to plan a weekend getaway sometime to see some of these cars, any suggestions on events/shows/cruise ins to attend to?

Thanks again-Matt

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: MaTTerZ ]

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: MaTTerZ ]

 

[Mike Dozier]

Matt

I'm not sure I agree with your logic.
Given the current state of small block
development, I'd say you can build an
EQUALLY reliable small block, making the same horsepower (up to 600 hp) for less money. I'm referring to the FE motor.

I'd agree that the 460 makes more reliable grunt for less...but that's not an FE motor so I assume a 460 based engine is not under consideration.

If you are going for "wow" factor, a 427
or 428 is neat. But if it's streetable,
reliable HP (and yes less weight), the
351 based motor is the better deal.

And unless you're going to go an MK II,
the small block is more authentic.
Frankly I think (4) webers or the individual
throttle bodies is more impressive than
a big block. But it's your car...do what
you feel like! Thank God we have that freedom.

MikeDD