CdA of a GT40 - Calculate your optimal gearing...

I'd like to assume a Mk1 for this, but I was a little surprised to read on Chris's ZFQ thread that he thought most GT40 replicas would strugggle to exceed 165mph, and that a taller final drive to allow greater speeds is unnecessary.

I'm after the CdA figures (The CDA figure is [drag coefficient x frontal area] so I may calculate the top speed of the car, and work out the optimal gear ratios.

Anyone got the figures or had their car in a wind tunnel?

Thanks
 
Hi Arnie,

discussed this with Chris also.

in " the ford that beats ferrari " a drag coefficient of 0,35 is mentioned on page 49. This seems to be the value for a standard with MK1 body with the " le mans nose " ( the later standard of all MK I´s).

There are some good drawings from ibsen ( just do a search in google for him). May be you can use them in a good drawing programm to calculate the frontal area.

original cars where clocked at 200 mph ( mkII´s). I think with a long enough straight ( or autobahn in germany rockonsmile) and an engine delivering >500 hp the 200 mph should be possible.

lets see what the result of your calculation is !

TOM
 
Now Arnie...
would that be with single mirror or double mirror.

Narrow body, mid size flares or Gulf body...

Mk1 or Mk2..if Mk2 would that be with or without snorkels.....

What about the Gurney flap on the rear.....or maybe even canards on the front....

Now what about the bigger core Mk2 rad. causing even more drag....

Dont forget the Gurney bubble

Oh and the single or double scoop nostril panel.....
and dont forget the Cd changes significantly when the figures are taken with the wheels rotating.....and the surface beneath the car moving also...

As you see there is no simple answer to your question....

Torque will get you there plain and simple.......and dont forget that the Mk2's AND 4's were 4 speed cars with a very long first gear...so there you have it....winkwink.

You could always buy a 40 and finish it out and then windtunnel test your config and decide on gear ratios after the build.....
 
Last edited:
Or you could simply look up Ronnie Spains book, check out the Gulf/JWA race specs & note that the GW small blocks were doing 205mph/6500 rpm at Le Mans in 68 & 69 in 1074/75/76 , so all you have to do is compute your final drive ratio to suit your choice of tyre then build your motor to deliver-- shouldnt be too hard given the tech is 40 years old- now stop yappin & start building:)
 
There are CdA figures in John Horsman's book, 'Racing in the Rain'. But as Fran says, which particular style of GT40 are you referring to. Actually, there are two Cd figures in the book but no information as to why and what exact body styles they refer to, so I did the calcs for drag for each to get a range. Can't remember the numbers, at home, but can dig them out if you're keen. Takes very little power to do 200 kmh, but by the time you get to 320 (200 mph) you'd better have some low to mid 400 HP at the engine. Not that hard really.

He did mention the definitive Mk 1 body (the one everyone knows and copies, with the blunt front end and the rear 3" spoiler) basically had no lift (or downforce either I would imagine).

In any case, why worry? As Dalton says, where you gonna do 200 MPH? I got the number plates, but that's as close as my 40 will ever do. Geared for 250 - 260 Kmh at 7000 in 5th, but I'm only interested in racing it, so tall gearing for cruising or top speed (in theory) bragging rights don't matter at all to me.
 
Thank you for your constructive input Fran.:D If you have a 1/3 scale model of all the options, I have access to an appropriate wind tunnel, and a group of people who normally work with Gordon Murray.

The meat on the bones here is "does one really need a ZF or ZFQ" to build a car with a comfortable 170mph top speed? As we discussed on the phone, I am at that 'decide before you buy' phase. Transaxle is a critical point here, and I plan to try to identify just how limited the perfomance of a car with an Audi or OEM Porsche G50 transaxle would be, compared to a ZF.

Given the relationship between engine power and aerodynamic drag is a constant , and assuming level surface and sensible transmission losses, its possible to work out your VMAX.

What is also important, is not to set your ratio's any taller than they need be, and also to find the compromise between shift duration and ratio shortness in order to maximise torque multiplication.

Armed with all this information, I can, as Jac Mac to some extent rightly points out, go build an engine. I would however want to build an engine which places maximum power at the most appropriate RPM for the given gear ratios, to deliver the required level of performance.

If you recall Chris Melia stated he was doubtful many 40 replicas could acelerate beyond 165mph. The relevence here is that if a powerful replica with say a 500bhp motor, which needs a ZF or ZFQ box can only hit 165mph, what does this say about a car with a 350bhp crate engine and an Audi transmission?

I prefer to establish the results in a scientific fashion rather than taking a suck it & see approach. Shoving a powerful engine and a tall CWP set in, is not science.

So with all the options Fran cites, perhaps a best and worst CdA are the figures I am looking for.

Gulf flares, snorkels, Gurney bubble, double nostril and MK2 rad won't be making it onto my car I don't think.

If we consider the Lamborghini Muria, a car from the same era as the GT40, which "borrowed" some of the styling clues, the CdA for a Muria is .577m²

Pumping that into the equation which has been simplified remove the unit correction factoring:

vmax ^3 = cda / power

we get the Muria with 500 net bhp having a theroetical Vmax of 193mph

This is assumptive that the engine delivers the quoted power figure at the same engine rpm required to deliver the engie speed, hence calculating gear ratio's is also important as previously stated.

If the Audi box is only good for 350bhp on the first motion shaft, lets allow for 15% losses, and suggest net bhp is 297.5bhp. Then the Muria has a Vmax reduced to 163mph.

As a side note I would argue (and based on the fact that I just broke a Quaife sequential box in another car for this very reason) torque is the evil in terms of damaging gearboxes, power only being an expression of torque at a given rotational speed. Lets agree to discuss engines producing max power at 6000 -6500rpm, well within the 1st motion design criteria for all potential transmissions to be fitted to a GT40.

Now based on this theory and wildly guessed CdA, any of the following could apply:

The Muria is one hell of a lot more aerodynamic than a GT40 replica
You don't need that much power to get 165mph from a GT40 replica
Most GT40 replicas are capable to well over 165mph
If you only want to go 163mph, an Audi transaxle may well do the job nicely. If the CdA is lower, you'll go even faster.
In Europe, somewhere like Spa or Monza or the Ring are a few of the numberous places you'll easily be pushing significantly more speed than this. Great circuits though and places I shall be visiting in mine Dalton, so not so academic after all.
 

Mike Pass

Supporter
Arnie, your calculations are very close to reality. I knew a local guy who was banned many many years ago in the uk for doing 191mph in his (then new ) Miura.

I think there are two limiting factors to Vmax. One is gearing - if you run out of revs with the gearing you have. The other is if you have a high enough gear then you top out when push equals drag (aero and friction). My guess is that most road use cars are geared to be usable rather than for Vmax and will hit the top gear ratio issue before they run out of power. My estimate is that a Mk1 body GTD with Renault box should do about 165-170mph depending on power and revrange of motor. A Mk1 SPF with ZF/ZFQ should be good for 180mph assuming enough power. I would suggest that the doors are very well fastened down when you Vmax your car as the pressure difference (Bernoulli principle) caused by the high speed flow over the roof will pop the door open - a bit worrying at 180mph!
If somebody out there is going for 200mph please let us all know where and when - this I want to see.
Cheers
Mike
 
One is gearing - if you run out of revs with the gearing you have. The other is if you have a high enough gear then you top out when push equals drag

You are right, there is a sweet spot in the middle of all this though. I set my Caterham up so it hits 159mph at 9400rpm in 6th. Soft limiter is at 9500rpm. Doesn't get much better than that.


Oh and....


If somebody out there is going for 200mph please let us all know where and when - this I want to see.

Mike , The 4km straight at the Ring. Estimated date: some time in 2010.
 
Cool thread. GTD owner Bob Macdonald produced a useful spreadsheet that enabled you to enter all gear ratios, engine power characteristics, i.e. torque/hp/rpm, Wheel diameters, drag coeff (Estimated/calculated or actual if known) even ride height I think and it would then plot speed vs rpm in each gear projecting most advantageous shift points etc. Was a bit theoretical but actually fairly accurate if I remember correctly. Someone on here probably has a copy or I might be able to find one if interested.

We recorded 176mph in Roy Smart's GTD40 Mk1 (168mph in rain), with a Renault Transaxle and it was still pulling, till our injectors maxed out. The following year when injectors were more suited, the motor broke..:(

With a stout motor and suitable gearing, I reckon 190+ should be attainable - 200 possibly, but you'd need a long straight and a lot of nerve - I think I'd be wary of cross-winds and body lift too - esp nose section.

We are fitting an all alloy 580HP motor/Ford GT 6-Speed into Bjorn Arnils GTD MK1 at the moment and will be looking to see what it will pull later this year.

I would say though that in my experience, it's torque that kills transmissions and operating them for extended periods at high speeds, esp if trans temps are allowed to rise too high.
 
Is this a touch academic? Where will you be hitting 200?

Even if traffic has increased over the lst ten years there are still places and times on our beloved german autobahns to do it. Last year i did a app 5 minute high speed pursuit with my 300 HP 964 in the slip stream of a 993 Biturbo. We where constantly doing around 270 km/h and if my P-car would have had more power and a better aerodynamic we could have done the 300 km/h or above easily, cause there was no traffic at all.

My approach:
I´m building a RCR 40 , gulfwide ( +2" suspension and 12" wheels qwith 345/35 Pirellis). My engine will be a high reving Levy Racing 331 ( powermax at app 6800, shiftpoint at 7500, Rpm max at 7800) it is expected to put out >500 HP. I back it up with a highly modified G50/05. ( long first and second gear, steel syncros; LSD, billet sideplate; oil cooler) and hope it will hold it, as the this engine is not the big torquemonster compared to the 371 or 427 or similar out there.

This is probably more power than 1074,1075,1076 had in 69. So given a long enough straight ( and we have it) >200 mph should be possible.
Nevertheless my gearing is not targeted for this speed.( see chart below)
It will depend on the engines power above 7000 Rpm what top speed i will reach( to be honest pretty irrelevant to me). I pesonally geared it for the most relevant speedrange on most european racetracks, between 140 km/h and 275 km/h. Target has been low rpm drops in every shift. Which i achieved with the 2.5 first and 1.842 second gear. stock 3 to 5 is already pretty narrow and fitting perfect.
So over all i would look for decent ratios with a nice rpm drop. Top speed gearing i would adapt with the approbriate Ring and pinion ratio according to the engine power available and desired top speed.-no need to change the ratios 1-5.
Different R&P´s are available for all the mentiond gearboxes.
Arnie what ever you choose i would make shure the box can hold your power ( which i´m not quite sure in my case, but just want to give it a try, because my perception from all the comments on this topic is, that we in this forum tend to overengineer and always are going to the save save save side).

The chart onby was provided by forum member and modified by me.
you can change your top speed rpm or shiftpoint rpm a s desired, as well as your tire size. It helped me a lot to find my ratios.

TOM
 

Attachments

  • GearSpeedCalculatorG5005.xls
    52.5 KB · Views: 299
Paul,

Bottom of the links page on this website is a gearing calculator as you describe.

Hmm. My link didn't work. Try again....

K2 RUM

Tom, If youa re using Steel syncho's in your G50, are they from Quaife?

I had a set Quaife Steel synchros in a 5 speed heavy duty Ford type 9 box (XR4i origins) which continually broke the bronze rings.

Good news is the Steel rings work.
Bad nes is they need re-lapping every 300 miles or so.

Is the Quaife kit for the G50 a synchro or dog engagment? Dog boxes are much more fun (clutchless changes), even if H pattern shift.
 
Arnie,

Don´t know from which manufacturer the steel synchros are. I have P... specialist doing all of this for me. I never heard about the re-lapping thing before. I will ask him about it. Other than that the only part from Quaife i´m using up to now is the long 1st gear ( primary shaft plus gear on secondary shaft). It will be a optimised synchro engagement, because i don´t want to spend too much money on that transaxle.

TOM
 
The Audi box, with the right gear set, can certainly well exceed 165 - I can attest to that personally as measured with a GPS on a long straight and flat road in the eastern part of my home state. That was achieved with a mildly tuned 302 with about 385hp/370torque at the flywheel, mirrors temporarily removed, clamshell seams taped, just under 4 inches of ground clearance at the front and about 4.75 rear. Be sure to have about 1.5 degree of nose down attitude and your doors firmly secured. Needless to say, make sure you have at least Z-rated tires. Indicated speed was 179 at 6,200rpm and the front end did not feel like she wanted to lift even with a few bumps and undulations in the road. With a little taller gearing and another 100hp I'm would guess that 195 is quite possible. So, net, 165 is not that big of a number for a properly set up gt40.

There's always a faster gun - my brother got to 191 (gps) in his highly tuned Esprit S4S on the same stretch before he felt like the driver's door glass was at risk of getting sucked out.
 
I have an old (1970) book by David Hodges which gives the frontal area of the Mk2 as 15.8 sq.ft., compared to the J car's 14.8. Does not give the drag coefficient, unfortunately. I would also think 0.35 is about right. I'm sure it wouldn't be better than that; possibly worse for a 40 in racing trim.
 
Purely as a matter of interest, I remember from my engineering days (40 odd years ago), that there is a rule of thumb that for a car with average aerodynamics (ie. average Cd) and average drive train losses, and suitable gearing, the top speed (mph) = 57 x the cube root of (engine brake hp divided by frontal area in sq.ft.).

So for example, with 350 bhp and 15.8 sq. ft we get 160 mph. This is very crude, and many other factors enter into the real situation of course.
 
OK, so now armed with the frontal area I can work out we have CdA of .51

Taking this info, I've written a little Excel sheet you can download at www.the-webbs.com/vmax.xls which will allow you to plug in your engine, transmission and tyre data to find out the theoretical top speed of your GT40, and work out the gear ratio set and CWP ratio to make it happen. If preset it with good ratios for 200mph in a 575bhp car. You'll not do 200mph with less than that level of power if the CdA figure I have is correct.

All that said, setting your gearing to optimise top speed, will negate acceleration, particularly at launch (high gearing generally resulting in excess tyre smoke or worse, a burnt out clutch). Before gettingbthis compromise right, I once configured my other sportscar with tall gearing to see how it impacted performance. Slowed standing quarters to over 12 secs, up from high 10's! That was a simple CWP change from 3.92 up to 3.37. It makes a big difference to how fast the car 'feels' too.

Enjoy!
 
Back
Top