Christmas came early this year

[Chris Kouba]

My build thread has gone cold lately and here's why:

Back in 1987 my dad bought this 40K mile 66 GT with a K code 289 and a C4 box. Over the next 4 years, we drove it a whopping 8k miles. It's sat in my parents' garage for the last ~18 odd years (since it last ran in '91 I think) but the week before Thanksgiving, it arrived in Oregon with its brother:

Which we had bought even earlier... ~1984 maybe. It's a mix and match of 67 fastback, stock internals '73 302 with a 4 bbl and a toploader. It was my car in high school and college but never made it out west or to AZ until now. It didn't fare so well at my parents', only earning an outdoor parking spot since 1994 (which was the last time it moved under its own power). It's currently rougher than it looks and will require a total basket case treatment to revive.

But the coupe is close to moving now, but needed top end rebuild. I am trying to put it back together now and all this time I had assumed it had hyd lifters but now I've found it has solid ones.

Can anyone help me out with how to set the rockers/valve lash? I surfed the engine sub-forum but it wouldn't return meaningful results for me. I assume it's similar to setting hydraulic but I know there's got to be something different. It'd be too easy otherwise...

Thanks in advance!

 

[Mark Clapp]

Chris, I took a junk valve cover to a muffler shop and had them torch a wide slot across the top to expose the rocker arm hold-down nuts. They charged $5. With the cover in place, you can run the car and not spray oil everywhere. With the motor running, we then loosened each nut until the tappet clattered, tightened it until the clattering stopped, and then tightened an additional 1/2 turn. We went down the row and then did the other side.

 

[Jac Mac]

Mark, he said its mech, not hydraulic.

Split firing order into first & second halves like this:

1--5--4--2
6--3--7--8

Now with valves rocking on #6 ( exh closing-inlet opening & timing pointer lined up @ TDC/0°, set lash on both valves of #1 cyl--- if you dont know specs for lash around 0.018" on inlet & 0.020" on exh will be safe for start up.
once done turn crank 1/4 turn at time to proceed thru firing order as you set lash on each cyl, you can never get lash too tight this way , only loose.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Mark, he said its mech, not hydraulic.

Split firing order into first & second halves like this:

1--5--4--2
6--3--7--8

Now with valves rocking on #6 ( exh closing-inlet opening & timing pointer lined up @ TDC/0°, set lash on both valves of #1 cyl--- if you dont know specs for lash around 0.018" on inlet & 0.020" on exh will be safe for start up.
once done turn crank 1/4 turn at time to proceed thru firing order as you set lash on each cyl, you can never get lash too tight this way , only loose.

Ditto+1:2thumbsup:
Very cool cars do you plan to do a complete back to bare metal restore
or just get them up and running?

 

[EGLITOM]

Chris

do you mind to give me adress of this christmas angle ?

Wow i just love those fastbacks. A mate of Reinhard is doing a 65 R model clone.
I saw the raw body last week = very impressive.

TOM

 

[Chris Kouba]

Mark-

Yep, that's all I could find was the hyd lifter set up, and subtle references to it being different than solid- but not quantifying what that difference is.

Jac Mac-

THANKS!! I looked for 2 hours on the web and couldn't find the specs. I'm sure someone will now point me at some link where I could have found the info in seconds but I couldn't last night.

Follow up question: if I've replaced everything north of the lifters (except the rockers actually), what would you do for a start up procedure? I have read when breaking in a new cam not to let it lope around under 1500rpm for the first 30m due to not wanting to gall the lobes, but that shouldn't be an issue- right? What would you do?

Pete-

No grand plans as of yet. The FB will need a full resto for peace of mind but the coupe is in reasonable shape. My currrent plan is to stash the FB and get the coupe up and running. At that point it will be back to my GT and get that running. I've got a few honey-do's that need done prior to launching into any additional $'s intensive projects (wedding reception this summer, kitchen remodel to pull off...). That said, Bethany is remarkably supportive of the addictions!

Tom-

Let me know if you ever are in the NE- I can introduce you to my parents in Connecticut. There's a couple others just taking up space but you'd have to persuade my dad...

 

[Al Jones]

Chris - I'm really surprised the car looks as good as it does after sitting outside here in Connecticut for that amount of time! Looks like you've got the next few year's projects all in one garage!

 

[Jac Mac]

Follow up question: if I've replaced everything north of the lifters (except the rockers actually), what would you do for a start up procedure? I have read when breaking in a new cam not to let it lope around under 1500rpm for the first 30m due to not wanting to gall the lobes, but that shouldn't be an issue- right? What would you do?
______________________________________________________________________________
Make sure you have oil flow up thru lifters/pushrods by priming with old dizzy minus gear ( This might take a while depending on what type of lifters are fitted ) , ensure that no valves are stuck open if it has not run for a few years, & then try for a start as above with about 2000 rpm as soon as you see oil pressure register.... bit of a loaded gun question though, Ive seen valves stick in cars parked in a panel shop for around three months...

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

Hi Chris

As per Jacmac, with solid lifters that have not moved for a while I would first remove the rocker covers and turn the motor over by hand and watch all the valves open and close for a number of cycles to ensure they are moving freely and are opening and closing without sticking.

Then remove the dizzy and run the oil pump with a battery or electric drill till the oil galleries are primed and running clear.

To help the oil flow I also turn the motor over by hand while running the oil pump as this ensures all bearings are totally coated prior to starting.

If all appears well then refit dizzy and attemp to start.

Have fun

Dimi

 

[Chris Kouba]

Gents,

Thanks all around and I know it's a precipitous question but I appreciate the answer.

The full story:
The motor ran when I received it (not strongly though) but had a combination of potentially sticky valves as noted and what the machine shop called "way too stiff valve springs" which conspired to lift five of the press-in rocker studs out of their functional range so the valves wouldn't even open. While trying to diagnose that, the valves which were opening weren't opening at the appropriate time (backfiring up the carb, intake appearing to be "breathing" instead of "inhaling" if that makes sense) and the root cause appears to be a timing chain with excess slack.

To date, the motor was torn down to the long block and cam, the heads have been converted to thread in studs and gotten a full rebuild (seats, seals and springs), timing chain replaced and cover installed, heads re-installed and torqued, NEW lifters and pushrods re-installed with the OLD rockers and OLD cam (is that an issue?), and as alluded to originally I am now at the point where I need to torque down the rocker nuts to set lash as appropriate and continue the reassembly.

Does any of this background stuff change any recommendations?

I will get back at is later in the week with the feeler gauges, instructions below and a bunch of patience. I have never had a motor down this far and I am excited to see if I can get it back together. Thanks for all the assistance so far! Stay tuned for updates.

 

[Jac Mac]

Chris, hate to say it, but one of the scareiest things to try is fit new lifters to an old previously used flat tappet cam, particularly as you state that its had some unpleasant treatment... strong springs- stuck valves etc. Its unlikely that the lobes are in pristine shape... the lobe of a flat tappet cam are ground with a slight taper to promote lifter rotation- the new lifters will also have a slight crown on the cam face ( actually a radius of around 60" IIRC ). If the taper has been worn off the lobes from previous use the crown of the new lifters on the old cam might be enough to prevent lifter rotation & failure of both cam & lifters may/will be the end result... plus all the cam lifter material worn off will end up in the pan to take a trip thru the oil system to further hasten the wear & tear.
Its the old question of how far to go... for me who hates doing things twice or three times I would be removing the cam for a closer inspection & a look at the cam bearings while I was at it, but only you know how much work the motors already done.

 

[Chris Kouba]

JacMac,

No worries- I ask because I am looking for a real answer and real advice. This car is going to be a runner so since I'm committing to doing it, I only want to do it once. This is the first time I've had heads off a motor or pushrods and lifters out of the valley so I need to stack the odds in my favor.

It'll be Weds before I can work on the car again so I have a few days to think about but it sounds like I can use that time to acquire a new cam and bearings...

If that's the case, would you mind re-typing your post about the break-in of a new cam? I saw it earlier but didn't have time to reply. It looked like good info.

And it looks like I owe you a beer or three... Next time you're in the states or I'm in NZ, I'm buying!

 

[Russ Noble]

Chris,

Jac Mac's not likely be Stateside any time soon. He can't even get a couple of hundred miles up the road to pick up a whole lot of his shit thats taking up room in my workshop! Guess I'll be delivering it when I check into his homestay in a couple of months....

So it's all up to you, book your flights now so you can buy him that beer or three, and look me up on the way through. And you can climb Mt Cook in between!

Cheers,

Russ

 

[Jac Mac]

Sorry Chris.
Should have left that up, have attached a write up so you can copy it to your pics etc. I dont think Im likely to ever visit the states now, there are that many GT40 members wanting to ply me with alcoholic beverages that I would have to do a rehab/detox session to sober up for the return flight home.

Not taking the bait tonite Mr Noble.

 

[Chris Kouba]

That's funny JacMac, I just assumed you flew first class and would start the detox process upon your return.

For better or worse, I have no qualms about inviting myself over should I get to the neighborhood and I'll be happy to buy a round.

I thought about Mt Cook previously as well. It made it onto my radar a few years ago but when I looked into flights and such it became a bit less interesting for what I could do here...

Thanks again for the repost.

 

[EGLITOM]

Chris
I can be very convincing

If he has a 67 mercury cougar i would be inclined to take your offer.

TOM

 

[Chris Kouba]

Sorry Tom, the Cougar is a '72 XR7 (351C, C6, open diff and yes- an 8 track!). I can paint a single black stripe for MILES! This is one I found on the web, but it looks just like what we (they) have:

Awesome car to putter around town or take to the drive in during the summer. It got a whopping 8 or so MPG, not so practical now. The top was in decent shape but it didn't like to go up or down (glass rear window was a pain!), so it quite literally spent the entire summer with the top down. I remember driving home in the rain once or twice in a mad dash to get it in the garage.

 

[Chris Kouba]

Next question for the group: Since I'm replacing the cam, should I switch to hydraulic?

I can't seem to find the exact factory replacement piece but Comp Cams make a "compatible" profile model for the K code motor. I want to maintain reasonable originality but wouldn't mind not having to adjust lash.

From a performance perspective, for a compatible grind they should be comparable, right? From the installation/maintenance perspective, they should be less intensive. I am able to return the lifters with no problems for hyd ones. What's the downside?

At this point, I have been mulling this question for the past couple days and thought it time to ask it aloud. Any thoughts?

Also, anyone have a good source for a new original cam? Ford P/N C30Z-6250-C. I've poked around the internet for a bit without any good direct replacement sources. Anyone have a recommendation for a comparable replacement cam?

Thanks again in advance!

 

[Neal]

Cougar = PIMP!

 

[TimB]

To put hydraulic lifters in a solid lifter block don't you need to modify it somehow...some sort of hold down kit comes to mind but I may be wrong