Dreamers World

[Gary Gibbs]

I agree that there are other engine shops here that will put together crate engines (canned packages that they have). For example a "wanabee dreamer" package from Performance Engineering consists of a 418 based 351 with AFR 205 heads, girdle, Eagle Rods and crank, JE 10.5:1 pistons, Comp Cams Hyd roller cam with ~.600 lift., ARP fastners, dyno break in and three pulls for $9500. Output is 550 HP at 6500 RPM on 93 octane pump gas. Eric Brown says he really hates

the one he has. Just kidding he loves it.

 

[Robert Logan]

Frank,

I must admit that the 500 hp debate has been 'around the bouy' too many times but against this I see that people with your and hopefully my experience with GT40's can help others make a much better choice.

The forum was thought of for reasons of passing information and this information is both informative and as a warning. I have been instrumental in starting this forum and many of my competitors freely advertise on the pages. I wish that they would spend some of their own monies and help to develop this forum, but really why should they.

We all have the right to be on this forum and as I have said to many of my customers, "You are all either frogs or princes and I have to kiss my fair share of frogs. The problem is that some of you take a huge length of time to transform into princes". To me I really do not care how long people take to transform to princes, or even if they transform, because we all share a common interest and therefore whether dreamers or manufactures, we talk a similar language even if the people from over the pond are crasey for 'cubes and grunt'.

Frank, thank you for all of your contributions to date on the forum, I for one make sure I read them and I hopefully learn from them.

Best wishes,

Robert

[Corrected UBB Code Error/ 080202]

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Earp ]

 

[Gregg]

Frank, I'm sorry that my recent questions concerning the horsepower and torque ratings of transaxles has appeared to sour you. (Gary, I don't think it was you.) I unfortunately was dumb enough to start building a big block car. Yes, I know the 427 sideoiler is not necessary but I am trying to replicate the car as close to the original as possible. I have located several t44 transaxles, however $35k is NOT in the budget. Therefore I am looking for the next best alternative. From all my research it appears that my best choices are either the porsche turbo box or the ZF. If I want a dog box I would most likely go hewland because it can be serviced here by more than one organization. However I'd prefer a synchromesh box. I have enjoyed the forum and thank all who have been responsive to my posts.

Gary, I am close to buying tires and was wondering who's tires you are running on your cobra and if you would buy them again. Thanks to all, "builders, owners and dreamers".

Anyone in the UK know of an affordable t44, or have the telephone number or email address for Ronnie Spain? I misplaced it. Thanks

 

[Brian]

Frank, we're trying! I'm out there every day bending metal....Unfortunately over here the enthusiasts are spaced few and far between. I think if I stretch it, I may be able to get together THREE replica within reasonable driving distance...However only one is road worthy. However 2004 should see a lot of noise around here. I am hoping for some kind of get together on the East Coast. I for one plan on tearing off some rubber once we hit the road.
Brian

 

[Ian K]

Well, if it weren't for dreamers, there would
be no GT40 replicas period. And, as far as
Lambos/Ferraris costing $250K versus a $6K
FoMoCo block, you're talking whole car vs.
engine only, and economy of scale. FoMoCo
produced more Windsor blocks in 1 year than
Lambo and Ferrari would build whole cars
combined in their lifetime just about.

There's some things you need to realize - the
UK has been in this game far longer than the
US, and the US experience with Renault has
been less than stellar (can you say LeCar?)
The availability of strong Renault transaxles
in the US is limited, and shipping from overseas
makes it harder. Granted, it's not approaching
ZF prices, but if (and I mean if) we blow a
Renault transaxle or 2, the downtime would
be considerable, and the cost will begin to
creep up. This is what runs around in my mind.

I'm not looking for 500HP/500lbs out of my engine,
but I can safely say I should be able to get
425HP/380lbs and still be streetable. Is it
wrong for me to want a transaxle that has
been proven to hold up, even if it costs
5 x more? Once the car is built, I don't want
to have to pull it apart for repair. That
takes away from the driving experience. I
expect that I will have to fix things as time
goes by, especially since I plan on doing
as much track time as I can at Sears Point
and Laguna Seca.

As Lynn Larsen said to me in a private
email, it's not about thinking outside the
box, but "making the box bigger". And it was
you all in the UK, who have the good fortune
to have so many track events, that made the
box as big as it is now, and found ways to
use the parts available to you such as
Renault transaxles, Cortina this, etc. And,
basically, made the GT40 replica a reality
for everyone else. And for that, we're both
eternally grateful and keen to listen to your
tales, experience, and advice.

But please don't demean and discount the dreamers
on this board, because they might dream up the
next great modification, and that's something
we all can benefit from.

My 2 cents (OK, maybe it was $20)

Ian

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: Ian K ]

[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: Ian K ]

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Fascinating thread...at 51, I am too old to begin learning to be a race driver of any substantial ability-learning to autocross the Mini will be a big enough challenge. I don't expect to be able to race my GT40. In deciding on specs for the GT40 I am getting, I felt 350hp or thereabouts is enough for me.I wanted a ZF box for authenticity,not because I was going to build a monster motor that would pulverize a Renault gearbox. And I think the Renault gearboxes are tougher than people think, or so many people wouldn't be racing- and winning- with them.
I expect to drive my GT40 on the street, and occasional track days when I feel like I have learned enough to go out on the track without crunching it. For me, at my skill level (which I suspect is the driving level of some of my Forum colleagues as well), having a chassis that is "faster than the engine", as Mercedes-Benz puts it, is a positive safety and longevity issue. 350 horsepower in a 2100 lb car is plenty for me to scare myself with. If I just wanted speed, there are cheaper ways to get it. And I think balance is important in any car. Just because you can get more power, or afford it, doesn't mean it will make the car any more fun to drive or necessarily faster. We are, honestly, talking about building more powerful small-block engines than they used to win LeMans in 1968 and 1969.
The more horses you squeeze out per cubic inch, the less reliable the motors are and the harder they are to drive on the street. I would like, for all the time and money it is costing, to be able to use my car and enjoy it as much as I can- and for me, that means a motor that will be not only street-driveable, which many are, but street-friendly, which few are. I am willing to accept slower acceleration and less top end- I'd rather a slower GT40 than a faster anything else.

 

[ChrisL]

Just a point worth making with regards to the 500HP comparison between the Windsor and the exotics...

If your target is to simply get 500HP then it can be done relatively cheaply - no big deal.

If you want the car to have 500HP, meet world emissions standards, make it as light as possible, and have grandma able to drive it to the corner shop at a whim, then the development costs go up expotentially - very big deal.

 

Jim,

Your words are well put!

Have fun.

John

 

I am half jim's age,and i totally agree with him!! With the same HP today as in 1968-69 ,#1074 and #1075(if i remember correctly....),we can get much more reliability out of the engine but still be very true to the original(don't forget these engines were built to last for 24 hours ..and thats it...total rebuilt, however you can get pretty far driving 190mph for 24 hours

And i have respect for all the guys here how they respond to these kind of posts,on other boards ,a flame war would be started a long time ago,just keep this board like it is ,there is already enough sh*& out there......

dENNis

I am a dreamer and i am proud of it

 

[Frank Catt]

You all know how a long build can get tedious,seems to go on and on,no end in sight and you question whether its all worth it! Then the day comes when you start up the engine for the first time and all of the excitement,the ambition and the need all come back in a rush and suddenly you are on a home run.
You all know what its like to sit in an overlong business meeting, going on and on over the same old ground, getting bored, drawing doodles on your notes, the chairman is either dozing or thinking of his girlfriend, when some little guy in the corner says something outrageous. Suddenly everyone is awake, some are upset, most are amused, but all are attentive and want in to the discussion.
I'm the little guy in the corner, I've just started the engine!
I am amazed that within minutes of my posting this topic there were 8 replies, and over 28 in the first 24 hours. It proves to me that while most of you don't say much, your all out there and reading the forum more avidly than your daily newspaper. I posted the topic at a time when most of the US was just getting up in the morning, but it seems your priorities, like mine, are to check out the real news first!
This item was not pointed at anyone, just a note of frustration that the forum was bogging down in waffle, and I wanted to rejuvinate a few minds and get people to respond. It did that all right
With respect to comments on the fact that we are lucky in the UK to have so many cars and events to get together, and that there are so few opportunities for you to get to meet other like souls, I am reminded of a statement from Dan in Minneapolis who told me " my GTD may be the only GT40 in the state, but it is definately not the slowest!" Think on that. Frank

 

There will be FOUR GT4s by spring in the Atlanta area that I know of. One is regularly run at road course events (Robling in Savannah, Road Atlanta and Atlanta Motor Speedway) for fun. I intend to do the same with mine. Have a lifetime of amature racing (Go kats fm 1958 thru 1988) Ferraris, Moto cross, RX-7. Have a Cobra Replica but am a fraid of that-the GT40 will see track tie! cb

 

[Gregg]

Chip is the forty that is regularly run a yellow ERA car?

 

[Bob Lacey]

Wow,certainly a hot topic this one!
How much HP do you need????,here is our experiences with crate motors.
Crate motors will vary in HP as they are obviously not blueprinted and Ford will probably dyno dozens and quote the best output.
They are also most likely quoting SAE output figures rather than DIN.
When we import the crate motors into South Africa and stick them on the dyno they make a lot less HP than claimed.
As a comparison for GT40 original against good replica, we use Killarney in Cape Town as our test track and our CAVGTR (race version) with 400hp with a really competent driver does 1.22s.
David Piper was there recently with his travelling road show of LeMans Era Ferraris and GT40s and his well sorted GT40 was doing 1.25s.
We did not acheive those times with huge horsepower but rather with chassis tweaks.
So for a road course you dont necessarily need 600hp but you may want of it for other reasons.
Heres to GT40s in all configurations and all the enthusiasts who love the car as much as we do!!!
Best regards to all
Bob Lacey CAV

 

The car here that runs is a blue car with parts from several sources ERA et al. It is a T-top and street legal. I'll email pics. The guy who owns it has a alum Cobra rep., GT-350, Lola, Bill Elliott NASCAR. We had a recent track event where he had 3 of his cars. cb

 

Hey guys, I’m building myself an old KVA replica Mklll GT40 and a low income. I can’t afford these oversized engines and I don’t want one. What I want is a GT40 that I can build, drive safely and doesn’t become an over priced obsession.
F Catt may have a valid point, how about some ‘reality’ for a change, real cars for real people at a realistic price?

 

[Mike Dozier]

Frank

If you are asking whether ALL the horsepower
claims made on this side of the Pond are
legit, then the answer is of course not.
Exaggerating the performance of one's car
is a time honored Yank tradition.

However as Ron and others have pointed out, there ARE a lot of folks making REAL high
HP out there. The Mustang crowd has made
(relatively) cheap horsepower just a phone call away to any number of engine shops.

But let's get to the other point I think you are trying to make, which is that many
of us Yanks place too much emphasis on HP.
For that I happily plead guilty, and I'll bet most other Yank gearheads do the same.

It's obvious to any student of automotive
history that the GM/Ford/Mopar horespower wars of the 1960s and 1970s are deeply embedded in our culture just like small
nimble sportscars are a part of yours.

Let's not forget that John Wyer was very much opposed to installing the 427 in the GT40. Of course it was horsepower
overkill installing that NASCAR engine in a
sports racer. But it worked...didn't it!
That's not to say the small block couldn't win,obviously John proved in time it could. But Henry Ford was not a patient man!

So here's the story...since most of us in the States don't have the opportunity to play on race tracks or do hillclimbs,
we get our jollies on the streets.

That means when I stand on the throttle of
my Hemicuda, Cobra, and yes GT40,
I want my eyeballs planted in the back of
my head, and when I shift gears I want
to see rubber left on the pavement.

Crude? Yep...Dangerous? Undoubtably...Fun?
You bet your a__!!!!

MikeDD
(Dangerous Neanderthal American Gearhead)

 

[Jim Glickenhaus]

Today I drove three different cars with three different transmitions. My MK-IV with it's T44, my 1931 Duesenberg with it's 3 speed nonsyncro, and a Maserati Coupe with paddle shift. This was the first time that I drove a paddle shift car. It was pretty wild to see it double clutch itself in the sport mode and use the auto mode in town. I think that Ford should consider a box like this in the new 40. If it doesn't it will IMHO be The Ford that is beaten by Ferrari. I'm begining to think that the dreamers may be onto something with the quaffe. A quaffe and a computer. Hummm...

 

[Guest]

Hi Frank - your quote "In the UK, the GTD40 car club guys race almost every weekend in serious competition" is, respectfully, not correct.

Hillclimbing and sprinting is competition of a sort by individually racing against a clock but it is certainly NOT racing.

Any driver whom is really trying when circuit racing has found on day one that the Renault transmissions are certainly not man enough and that bags of HP and torque are really necessary. What is essential to be competetive when racing (no point racing otherwise) is a torque band commensurate with gearing relative to the circuit being raced and with the level of racing competition today you don't get that with a 302 or a Renault box.

Due to the condition of UK roads those cars developed for racing are undriveable on the road so we are really talking about three catagories - Race cars, hillclimb/sprint cars and road cars. Each use has their own required transmission and powertrains so really there is no arguement.

Stir it up. More contraversary.

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Bob Sparks ]

 

[ChrisL]

With regards to some performance figures not adding up when looking at some supercars, here is my view...

Let me say, firstly, that as an Australian, I think our philosophies of supercar-dom probably fall somewhere between the USA and European perspectives. We love our drag racing (as per the USA measure of performance) and we love our circuit racing (as per the European measure of performance).

My first racer was built primarily as a drag car but I have since moved to the world of circuit racing so have built a car that excells in that area. Let me tell you that these two race cars are two very very different animals. Measuring my circuit car in a drag situation is no more meaningful than measuring my drag car in a circuit situation.
Although horsepower is a good rule-of-thumb indicator of a car's performance, there is usually far more to the story than just a figure. Torque characteristics, gear ratios, weight distribution, tyers, power delivery and even suspension play an enormous role in the ultimate performance of the car... and it can probably be safe to say that you tune for one scenario at the detriment of the other.

Measuring a car in an environment for which it was not desiged should be seen as an exercise in curiosity and nothing more.

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Chris L ]

 

"Too much is just about enough" cb