Electric water pump

I am just planning out a few details before i think of building up an engine.
I am considering using the 351W engine and using the Meizere water pump instead of the factory unit.

The question is did anyone try and fit one in their car? And how did it perform.

Oh yes i am considering this for a Tornado GT40 chassis.

 

[Andy Besic]

I have the Meziere remote pump in my GTD and I have found it to work better than the belt driven stock unit it replaced on a 410hp 331ci. Electric fuel pumps, water pumps, fans, accusump valves, lights etc really draw the current though.

Andy

 

Here is an interesting question....Do you have some sort of control that regulates its speed?....Slow for warm up and fast when near 105 degrees C.

 

[Andy Besic]

Yes, it's called a thermostat. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Seriously, I have -6 lines run from the rear of the intake manifold that by-passes the thermostat to the header tank to remove steam and provide more cooling and I believe there is a small by-pass at the thermostat. The car warms the same as it did with the belt driven, but I have found it to actually run cooler and typically not need the radiator fans at all.

 

[David Briggs]

I have Mezier pump on my CAV w/347, it works very well and you can bleed the air out of the system before you start up the engine. I run a 180 thermosat. The idea of the pump being automatically turned on and off or having it's speed varied did not apeal to me, I want things simple.

 

[Bill Musarra]

I am using the Moroso unit. Be aware that these units are not short and stick out further than the stock water pump. There was mention of an off engine pump boster that is mounted on the radiator some time ago. Don't know if a search would turn it up. I think Lynn posted something about it. I am planning to move my pump to the side engine panel as I want to move my engine forward, and it puts the pump next to my shoulder in the cabin.

Bill

 

[Sandy]

Check threads from Paul Thompson from the UK, I think he did one (external pump) on his aluminum SVO block, but had some problems.

I talked to the John Barrett who does the racemate pumps (www.racemate.com) and he said that the electrics are OK for drag/street but not suitable for road/track racing due to low pressure/flow issues.

After looking at flow numbers for edelbrock and the racemate pumps they seem to have a good amount more of flow then the Moroso/CSI/Mezire electrics which he said is required to keep the internals from getting hot spots where flow must be pressureized (sp) to keep from forming.

This is just to pass some info that I got from a conversation before I decided that I would just do a conventional pump.

Sandy

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi Sandy /all
Roy's GTD has a Davies Craig electric pump fitted and it worrks extremely well (once bled!!). In fact it worked a little too well the other week as Roy confirmed that the motor ran 'too cool' when he was at the airfield circuit.

The real crux though is to ensure that the system is fully bled of all air before use. Fortunately this can be achieved by running the pump but not the engine and listening to the 'note' of the water flowing....

 

[Ron Earp]

I really don't think there is a need to use an electric pump IF, and big if here since some people have problems with this, the system is properly bled, which is normal for a mid engined car.

People forget about having a burp valve in the intake manifold, typically the highest point in the engine, and feeds from the back (or front) of the heads to the water neck to accomidate for engine tilt and pockets of air getting trapped. Also need one at the top of the radiator to bleed that. Some folks that have not had these things have complained of overheating and blame the pump, when in fact it is the setup that causes this problem, not the pump. I just don't think I'd like an electric pump for street and track use - something else to fail, overheat, short, or cause a problem.

R

 

[Sandy]

Can't go wrong with a couple of fan belts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif, the racemates have an integral alternator so very simple, and reliable, and no brackets for the alternator to mess with.

Ron, thanks for stressing the bleeding of air, I never really thought too much about it but it sounds like the root of most GT40 cooling problems.

Sandy

 

Now i remember looking at a few engine bays of Porsche GT-1's and Ultima's and it looked something like a swirl pot of sorts with the rad cap mounted on it and 4 lines coming off of it and down to the engine. Now from the conversations i had with one of the race engineers he mentioned that it assisted bleeding the vehicle and increased efficiency in the cooling system.

I can see the assistance in bleading the cooling system but increasing efficiency? Hmmm have to look at that again.

Syd

 

[Chris Duncan]

The Meziere flows 55 GPM, how much do the Edelbrock and racemate pumps flow?

 

[Sandy]

Kalun - This is off of the site for the racemate (buried in the alternator pdf)

Racemate Pro (the regular is a bit less) and Edelbrock victors I think are also close.

Flow in GPM(gallons per minute)
RPM GPM
1,500 36
2,000 49
2,500 56 << Mezire Range
3,000 70
3,500 83
4,000 94
4,500 107
5,000 119
5,500 133
6,000 145
6,500 155
7,000 163
7,500 176
8,000 182

For my conversation pressure and flow capabilities are important, but I can only say that I have one of them on the mustang and it works fine, seems the electrics work fine too on the folks with them so very interest set of different numbers...

Sandy

 

[Howard Jones]

I believe that one very easy way to improve the cooling system in GT40 is to leave out the heater and all it's plumbing. I did not install a heater in my car and although it does run a little hotter on a hot day and when run hard it always seams to recover and seldom gets over 210F or so.

Even during my first track experiance the car ran cool enough not to create any real problems. The hottest it got on the track was about 200F. Air temp was about 70 in the morning and 78-82 afternoon.

I agree on the bleed lines though. Another project for the winter I guess. I am going to put one in the top of the radiator at least and maybe another in the top of the intake manifold to start.

The eldenbrock RPM victor jr.alum waterpump I have seams to work well enough for me. Someone had their GTD radiator looked at and flow tested. The radiator guy said it flows plenty of water and should work well enough, surface area wise, for a reasonably powered street/track engine, 300-400hp. The main thing is to flow ONLY water and no air.

 

[Sandy]

Howard -

A heater? too much work to stay warm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. I'm guessing the RCR's aluminum chassis will provide enough to keep it toasty, especially if I run the integral drysump tank with nice toasty oil. I live in Southern California, we just had our 2 days of rain and cold weather this year /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sandy

 

[Chris Duncan]

I'm wondering how much the flow rate has to do with overall cooling on a 40.

Is flow rate the only issue or are radiator and overall efficiency just as important?

What is 55 GPM really good for?

I do know that when testing an AC system it gets colder on the next to lowest fan speed and not like you would think on the highest fan speed.

Sounds like someone needs to call up Mr. flow expert Adam C from wherever he's hiding and get him to weigh in on this potentially complex flow dynamics sitchuashun.

 

[Sandy]

Yes, need some of the automotive technologists to come out of the closet. Many things affect cooling system performance, a nice puzzle. The thing that comes to mind is what the John at racemate said that you need adequit flow and pressure. So not sure if the 55gpm is just pumping into a bucket (same for the numbers on the racemate pumps) but I'll bet it has to do with have enough circulation throught all parts of the head an block while keeping things from getting hots spots, especially in the heads and top of the cylinders.

The really interesting thing is that the electrics, for the most part, seem to work just fine. Still need an alternator (and related hardware), so not as attactive as the racemate is for me.

Sandy

 

[Ron Earp]

[ QUOTE ]
The really interesting thing is that the electrics, for the most part, seem to work just fine. Still need an alternator (and related hardware), so not as attactive as the racemate is for me.
Sandy

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. KISS. Ask Roy and Paul about their electric pump and how it got hooked up backward and spoiled a one time a year top speed run. Never heard about that with a belt driven pump. Less to break is a good thing.

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi Ron

We still think the electric pump is a good idea, doesnt draw a lot of power, should'nt cavitate regardless of engine rpm, makes for easier bleeding once you understand the 'sounds' it makes when pumping and once you shut off, it can continue to circulate and take heat from the motor.

Re the 'hooking up wrong way round' - it was not an electrical issue, we plumbed it arse about face initially (wrong), then upon reversing the flow direction, it pulled water from heads, returning to the rad (wrong). Finally got it right, draw from bottom of rad and pump into the front of the block - All works well now. Unfortunately the damage had already been done and the alloy block is no more - RIP.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

ps - on another note, Motoring News yesterday had a page on MX5 racing over here, so Malc is going to bring it over for you. Also has a Mod 4.6 32v 325HP + Tremec, new but surplus for £4K in the small ad's.....

 

[Gary Gibbs]

There is a lot of useful information (flow, pressure drop, etc.) in the Ford GT technical paper concerning cooling system design. Great read. It is one of the papers in the SAE book which contains all of the Ford GT and GT40 papers.