Grand Jury

[Pat]

IMHO, this "situation" has arisen because of the very phenomenon that was mentioned in a previous post...the militarization of our police forces. Much of the military style equipment they have recently added to their arsenals comes from surplus military equipment left over after we withdrew from Iraq, and there will be more coming once we're fully withdrawn from Afghanistan. This military equipment is, according to what I have read, provided at no cost to the police departments who apply for the equipment.

Doug

Doug, if that were true, none of this stuff would have happened in the '50s or '60s prior to the recent "militarization".
Neither Mr. Brown or that of Mr. Garner's deaths can be attributed to former military weapons.

It think it obscuring of root cause issues to attribute inner city crime and concomitant police action to Humvees and MRAP vehicles in the hands of police. As they say, correlation does not imply causation.

 

[Keith]

Doug, if that were true, none of this stuff would have happened in the '50s or '60s prior to the recent "militarization".
Neither Mr. Brown or that of Mr. Garner's deaths can be attributed to former military weapons.

It think it obscuring of root cause issues to attribute inner city crime and concomitant police action to Humvees and MRAP vehicles in the hands of police. As they say, correlation does not imply causation.

But it is an indicator of a certain 'culture' is it not?

 

[Pat]

But it is an indicator of a certain 'culture' is it not?

I'll let you know the next time I'm pulled over for speeding by an MRAP vehicle. When the guy across the lake gets his annual visit from the cops to quiet down his New Years Eve party and they launch a full flak vest wearing, Humvee riding, M16 firing tactical assault, I'll post pictures.
The American military budget is the largest in the world and as a result of two wars over the past 11 years has a huge surplus. American police traditionally have had limited budgets especially over the past six years during the recession. MRAPS and Humvees are great to help hurricane survivors. Surplus generators are great to assist in relief efforts and power outages. There is no police administrator, who in their right mind, would not take advantage of the free or loaned equipment made available.
The "militarization of police" is media hype but great fun for your average, tin-foil hat wearing bunker dweller who is still waiting for the government to microchip us, put us all in FEMA camps, and take away our guns.

Multiple studies, including from the Justice Department, have shown that the guns used in homicides, including the killing of police officers, overwhelmingly tend to be small-caliber handguns. Moreover, gun ownership has increased over the past 20 years — the same period in which both the violent crime rate and the killing of police officers have been in decline.

But what about those military style SWAT Teams you see on TV??

Here's a look at how often and for what those teams have been called in the urban crime. gang infested American cesspool known as Chicago:


METRO SWAT
Year Deployments Types of incidents
2013 8 Two barricaded subjects, six arrest warrants
2012 8 Eight warrants
2011 13 Three barricaded subjects, eight warrants, two “threat mitigation”
2010 11 Two barricaded subjects, five warrants, four “threat mitigation”
2009 9 Two barricaded subjects, six arrest warrants, one “other”


But it makes for great U.S.A. bashing.

 

[Larry L.]

When the guy across the lake gets his annual visit from the cops to quiet down his New Years Eve party and they launch a full flak vest wearing, Humvee riding, M16 firing tactical assault, I'll post pictures.

I hope you do! :thumbsup:

(What warrants all that? Is he supposed to be some kinda Mafia 'Don', or is it just a convenient, lame excuse for the local P.D. to roll out/play with all its toys?)

 

[Pat]

But it is an indicator of a certain 'culture' is it not?

I'll let you know the next time I'm pulled over for speeding by an MRAP vehicle.
When the guy across the lake gets his annual visit from the cops to quiet down his New Years Eve party and they launch a full flak vest wearing, Humvee riding, M16 firing tactical assault, I'll post pictures.
The American military budget is the largest in the world and as a result of two wars over the past 11 years has a huge surplus. American police traditionally have had limited budgets especially over the past six years during the recession. MRAPS and Humvees are great to help hurricane survivors. Night vision devices help catch burglars and find lost kids. Surplus generators are great to assist in relief efforts and power outages, same thing with military radios and computers.
There is no police administrator, who in their right mind, would not take advantage of the free or loaned equipment made available. This isn't new, when I was a kid, (hint: that was not recently), the New Orleans Police used WWII era armored cars in Mardi Gras Parades.

The "militarization of police" is media hype but also great fun for your average, tin-foil hat wearing bunker dweller who is still waiting for the government to microchip us. infect us with Ebola or put us all in FEMA camps.

But what about those military style SWAT Teams you see on TV??

Here's a look at how often and for what those teams have been called to duty in the urban crime, gang infested, American cesspool known as Chicago:


METRO SWAT
Year Deployments Types of incidents
2013 8 Two barricaded subjects, six arrest warrants
2012 8 Eight warrants
2011 13 Three barricaded subjects, eight warrants, two “threat mitigation”
2010 11 Two barricaded subjects, five warrants, four “threat mitigation”
2009 9 Two barricaded subjects, six arrest warrants, one “other”

You'd think a city of almost 3 million people, (many there legally) would have at least a SWAT shoot-out or two a day.

But it makes for great U.S.A. bashing though...

 

[Keith]

Who is USA bashing? The same issue apply to us here but the ramping up of paramilitary style police here is more visible as by definition, we enjoy an "unarmed police force"

I may be wrong, but generally speaking I do not believe that we in the UK suffer the same issues as the USA in regards to "community issues" but I would think that France might run the USA close on that subject.

Unarmed Police? Not for much longer. Parliament are using "National Security" concerns to pass new legislation ostensibly to control potential terrorism, whilst gearing up contentious police stop and search tactics.

We are getting so far away from the "Bobby on the beat" warm and cuddly community policing, that police act and dress sometimes like an occupying power. However, like many, I don't think I have anything in particular to fear from this shift in policing dynamics, but there again, I'm not active.

I sometimes think that the citizens have not been proactive enough in supporting police in the past and that consequently, a significant gulf has widened between us...

Whatever happens, these shifts in our own communities to me signal that the terrorists have already won a significant victory.

It is a debate that concerns everyone. If we want to protect our democracies and our way of life, we are going to have to fight harder to keep them, and that includes solving problems such as occurred in Ferguson...

For the life of me, I have never understood what is to be gained by burning down your own neighbourhood if you are hacked off at something. WTF does that gain? It happens here too, and it pains me to see the heartbreak it causes ordinary people. Of the 1400 looters they caught on camera during our last episode a couple of years back, they have traced and sentenced over 1,000 of them. There is no support or sympathy for them here...and that all started when a known Yardie gangster hit man was shot dead by police in a taxi. According to his mother, he was a sweet innocent little boy. Jesus! Did we all pay for that!

 

[Jack]

Well stated Pat. Way too much "hype".

 

[Terry Oxandale]

I'm curious as to what discussions are playing out in the boardroom of the NRA regarding inappropriate or unaccounted use of government authority in these recent events.

 

[Pat]

I hope you do! :thumbsup:

(What warrants all that? Is he supposed to be some kinda Mafia 'Don', or is it just a convenient, lame excuse for the local P.D. to roll out/play with all its toys?)

What warrant's that you ask??? It's the midnight karaoke.

 

[Pat]

Who is USA bashing? The same issue apply to us here but the ramping up of paramilitary style police here is more visible as by definition, we enjoy an "unarmed police force"

I may be wrong, but generally speaking I do not believe that we in the UK suffer the same issues as the USA in regards to "community issues" but I would think that France might run the USA close on that subject!

Hmmm, seems to me I recently read the British government has just invested in water cannons because they are fearing the rising tide of civil unrest as austerity is forcing the reduction of state workers and their pensions. I also read that the UK police have killed an unarmed fellow named Mark Duggan in a circumstance not unlike the demise of Mr. Brown in Ferguson MO. The "community issues" appear eerily similar.

Here's a picture quiz.

Match the photo to the published caption (Hint, some choices are not used):


A) A WAVE of violence and looting raged across London and spread to three other major British cities last night as authorities deployed armoured vehicles and arrested hundreds of rioters.
B) Riots commence in Ferguson MO as grand jury announcement is made.
C) Riot police stand in line as fire rages through a building in Tottenham four days after Mark Duggan's death at the hands of police.
D) Map of Oakland California Riots
E) Map of London Riots
F) Riots in Tampa, Florida After Cigar City Brewing Company prematurely ran out of beer at their annual release of their highly acclaimed Hunahpu's Imperial Stout.
G) Tens of Thousands March in London against Israel
E) Police stand in front of Unionists gathered in George Square, Glasgow.

 

[Keith]

I'm not arguing against you Pat. Your post serves to illustrate certain similarities but bear with me, we do not have "segregated" communities such as the USA, and before you jump down my neck, I lived in Alabama for 6 years so do have some first hand knowledge at the differences.

What is similar is that Police responses to either civil unrest or terrorist threat is pretty much the same the world over. A ramping up of paramilitary capability which is then adopted as the norm. With such small distances between major cities here in the UK, we can no longer say that rural policing varies that much from inner city policing, and that equals overkill in small towns and villages (if you can find them that is. British police are all but invisible in small communities these days).

It is safe to say that in the UK, in general, there is not a very trusting relationship with the police. What has also helped to foster distrust, are these disastrous police "reality" TV shows, which quite frankly, mostly make them look like idiots.

I've seen a couple of American ones, and believe me, they make our police look stupid by comparison. I am always impressed at the professionalism and fitness of the average American cop, whilst ours look fat, awkward, and numbnuts.

 

[Larry L.]

What warrant's that you ask??? It's the midnight karaoke.

Karaoke?! Well then, HECK YA!!! SEND IN THE SEALS!!! :rifle:

 

[Terry Oxandale]

I've seen a couple of American ones, and believe me, they make our police look stupid by comparison. I am always impressed at the professionalism and fitness of the average American cop, whilst ours look fat, awkward, and numbnuts.

Take a look again Keith. I'd say 50% of the police force in Little Rock (or just about anywhere) would never survive a foot chase. The younger guys are pretty fit, but mid-term and later, they get pretty heavy.

Our's look pretty stupid at times as well, but in this country, we seem to have a pandemic of stupid television viewership that seems to be in love with the ubiquitous CSI here, there, everywhere, in which the "tough guy" cop is glamorized. Is it any wonder we have a problem in this country of police thinking they are the end-all answer to social problems?

 

[Doug S.]

Doug, if that were true, none of this stuff would have happened in the '50s or '60s prior to the recent "militarization".
Neither Mr. Brown or that of Mr. Garner's deaths can be attributed to former military weapons.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear.

I do not attribute the deaths of either murder victim to any of the military equipment that has been donated by the military. The issue to which I was referring was the generalized distrust toward police in general, as well as the adoption of certain "military" attitudes toward how to deal with danger. When I said "militarization", my comment was more about the change of attitude the police have displayed...plenty of evidence, including the outward symbolism of the newly acquired military equipment. In the military might is power...speak softly and carry a big stick and all that. The police seem to have generalized that "stick" to mean their entire arsenal of options. Their intention is to quell dissention by whatever means necessary, even if they have to "sacrifice" a few minimally violent citizens...or, in the cases under discussion, possibly not even violent...that gentleman who was strangled for selling untaxed cigarettes didn't seem to attack anyone, he was simply defending himself from being attacked by the police, as I saw it, and they still killed him. Was that because he did not readily comply with their orders? As I watched the video it didn't seem to me he was aggressive, other than perhaps verbally. When did it become OK for the police to kill someone because of what they say, or how (loudly?, emphatically?, disrespectfully?) they say it?

I really believe the police have become too full of themselves. They are like Tricky Dick...instead of "If the President of the United States does it, it isn't illegal!!!", it's "If the police do it and claim they are "...in fear for their lives", it isn't illegal!!!" How much does it take to be "...in fear for my life"? Am I allowed, as a citizen, to utilize deadly force if I am "...in fear for my life", or is that a privelege that is reserved for the law-enforcement community only. In the case of the M. Brown incident an interview I saw indicated that the state in which that incident happened had a law that stated that a police officer had the right to use deadly force if he felt his life was in danger, so obviously it IS a right granted to the police there...but it is a right to which the general public is entitled, too? I suspect not...but, that is just one more bit of evidence that the police have managed to get their discretion to be of paramount importance...more so than protecting the general public. In a way, I know from past experiences with a rogue cop brother-in-law that the police trade tips on ways they can brutalize individuals who challenge them or run from them without appearing to be using unnecessary force. Sometimes it goes too far, though....and here we are.

Doug