GT40 Race Classification in the US

Ron Earp

Admin
I've a question for your SCCAer or NASA people out there - what would a GT40 replica race as in the US in these series? Can it even race? The SCCA rules, to a newbie, are daunting to say the least. NASA seems a little more "down to earth". If anyone out there can shead some light I'd appreciate it.

Somebody needs to have a "Run what you brung" series in the US but I suppose our law system has killed that off. I'd imagine we'd regulate to death the hill climb type events that seem to happen all over the UK.
Thanks,

Ron
 
I'm not really familiar with SCCA or NASA classing, but will be interested to hear where the GT40 fits in. If I recall correctly, we had a member (NASA racer, maybe?) who wanted to build and race a GT40 in the US, but he eventually gave up because it didn't really fit well anywhere. I think he ended up buying an Ultima or a Radical, maybe an Elise.
 
If I remember correctly, NASA recently added a classification for Cobra kits, I think it may have been specific to Factory Five's, so it might not be unheard of. I'm not sure I'd be willing to go wheel-to-wheel after all the hours I've put in, though.
 
As far as I know there is no race bracket in SCCA for a GT 40 replica to run in. Best guess is that it might match up with a Panoz Esperante GTS in the GT-1 class. The Esperante runs a ford 5.8-liter, 385-bhp engine and the curb weight is 2,685lbs. The performance of the Esperante in the GT-1 class suffered against ex-TransAm cars which they had to compete with. Now it is my understanding that the Esperante has been moved to compete in the SCCA GT-2 Class. GT-2 would be a good group for GT 40 Replicas to run in.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
After spending hours with the crazy SCCA site and rules I came to the same conclusion. GT1 is some serious business and your 40 would have to be pretty much a dedicated track car to run.

It also appears that my Lotus must run in GT2, in which it would not be competitive unless it was just completely converted to a track car. The SCCA might be called a club but I fail to see how the average joe can get in there and track a car. More like SCCA Inc......
 
As a competitor in the SCCA, I can assure you that NONE of the "GT-classes" will a street driven car be competitive.
The "GT" cars are designated GT1 through GT5,,,,with GT1 being large bore cars (mainly V8 powered), and GT5 being smallbore (generally mini coopers, 1200cc nissans etc) with GT2,3,&4 having their wieght and cc limitations somewhere in between.

The GT class is the fastest of the full bodied car (closed wheel) classes. In GT-1 you need a current Trans-Am car to be nationally competitive, and in 2-5 you need basically the same only with a smaller engine.

I used to race a GT5 nissan 110 with a 1200cc engine in it. I was barley competitive on a regional level, and my car would regularly turn 9200rpms and had 13.75 compression with a full tube frame. Basically in GT you start with a steel roof and a production car block, everything from there is custom made. I used to get beat regularly by a fellow who had invest over $100k in a little alfa rameo, that would do things you wouldn't believe unless you saw ity with your own eyes. (this guy would regularly beat up on many v8 powered cars)
Anyways, on my little nissan, engine life was measured in "hours" (if I was lucky), and after destroying two engines in one weekend, I decided "GT" was a class for "big boys" with much more expendable funds than me,,,,,,,so I went to "IT" class and built my 190 mercedes.

If you haven't been to an SCCA race, you should go check it out. Yes, it is a club, but nearly no one,,,,, not even the "showrrom stock" guys drive these cars on the street.
It is not unusual to see guys show up with a semi trailer and all of the equipment of a nascar team at an SCCA race, as alot of "playboys" like to race with their wallets instead of their driving skills.

This is one of the reasons why there are spec classes, like spec racers & spec miatas.....
of course you still have the big money guys infiltrating these classes. They just happen to show up with a spare car in case they smach into you with their primary one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif.

If you have a street car and want to play on the track, my opinion is to join a porsche club driving event, as they are non-competitive, and the focus is on having a good time & taking your car home in the same shape it showed up in.

If you are convinced you want to competitively track your GT40 in the SCCA, there is a "run whatch brung" class in most regions called "super production" , where you can race anything on 4 wheels, with no engineormin wieght limits,,,but it must meet all the GT class safety requirements.
This means you will need a full cage, firesystem, fia approved fuel cell, etc.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
This is good information! I've been trying to hook up with a few local SCCA folks and I have been to watch races, very enjoyable. I'd just never looked into classifications for cars I own but it appears I wouldn't be able to race them maninly due to money. The GT classes sound very expensive.

And, the showroom stock classes, from what I can tell, aren't. Plus, the cars have a specific lifetime (I could be wrong) but it looks like to race say a 3 series you'd have a relatively new one, big bucks, converted to a race car, big bucks, that cannot be used for anything else. Super production, again, sounds like my GT40 just gets converted to a track only car which isn't too appealing for me.

Spec Miata seems affordable for me and I am going to look into that more.
 
Although I am not an SCCA competitor, a fellow on my staff has raced at the SCCA national level for 30+ years. Based on my extensive conversations with him, Alain is dead on with his observations about SCCA classes and racing. In order to be competitive in SCCA, my friend's Lotus Super 7 is about as "stock" as a NASCAR stocker. Also, wrangling over rules and cheating seems to be perpetual, with more lawyering going on at SCCA Competition Board meetings than at your local courthouse. Finally, the unfortunate "if you can't beat 'em, then run 'em off the track" philosophy that has infected NASCAR has invaded SCCA as well. Exercising your GT40 by hooking up with a Porsche club, as has been suggested, is a good idea, although some PCA regions may frown on non-Porsche powered cars. For my money, commercial companies like "Car Guys" offer the best opportunity to have fun on the track with your own car. They start with classroom chalk board sessions and then up the excitement in a gradual manner, first with lapping with an instructor driving, then the instructor as a passenger, and finally with you solo. Passing, and any kind of wheel-to-wheel proximity, are very limited, but that's fine by me. Car Guys holds sessions at a number of tracks up and down the east coast.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
You know, there is a west coast organization that is similar in that they rent track time and charge a modest fee for club member daily use. I want to think it was something less than $200 for the weekend. Each class got out on the track 4 or 5 times a day.

The club was broken up into 4 or 5 classes with rabbits in class 1 and corvetts, corbra etc in class 4 with faster than that racecars or the like in class 5.

There was classroom 1/2 day requirements for the first day and little or no passing except on the straits. Kind of if you are a fool you're out of the club rules also. I like that one.

If I can find out more I'll post it. This kind of thing would be fun and afforable. Whereas real racing is way out of my buget.
 
NASA has high performance driving schools. Many people take them with the idea of getting a license and competing, but there is no requirement that you do so. They have different groups for beginners on up to experienced drivers, with things like passing rules relaxed as you go up. They supply instructors who are experienced race drivers. By the time you get up to Group 4 (the most advanced), there are no restrictions on passing (except to do it safely).

The Shelby club (SAAC) also runs open track event, on both local and national levels. They do not offer instruction, and the only restriction is that the car has to be Ford powered or a Series 1.
 
Ron,

You might look into vintage racing. I approached SVRA and was told the car wasn't really a vintage racer but since it was a GT40 (and we know what a crowd pleaser it is) they'd consider letting me run.

The upside of this is two fold. SVRA rules state if you hit someone you get to pay for their damage. So there are no fools trying to punt you off the track because they can't get by. The other part is you can run full out or just do quick parade laps. It's your choice. Race or compete with yourself.

Maybe if a few of us approach them they might give a general OK for GT40 replicas. We can sway them with the extra $$$$ brought in by drawing in folks who want to see 40s race. If there's enough participants they might sanction a class ala FF Cobras. Maybe?

Mark
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Good comments by all, I am ignorant I'm afraid. Unfortunately, my roots are in drag racing and this is definitely a more "backyard" affair on local tracks that is fun and definitely competitive. But, it doesn't have all the rules and regulations that SCCA has. I'm sure my view point is naive, but I figure if you build it then you ought to be allowed to race it. Not so in SCCA, or at least, it is at a much higher level than I can support. Of course there are rules and breakouts in drag racing such at 11.99 and 10.99 etc. but still, it isn't as regulated. Run what you brung is the order of the day in many areas. 11.39s? Okay, but next time you best come with...Yes, I know it isn't perfect and with some 10s cars dangerous, but most of the amateurs rarely get into the 11s so it seems to work well.

Anyhow, my road racing experience is limited to motorcycles and some assorted track days in a car such as Lotus Days and Porsche days. I wish to start some road roacing as a hobby but am daunted by the classes, where to start, what to do, etc. Straight lines are okay but road racing would be a lot more fun! I hereby withdraw my former comments about any handling problems can be compensated my adding more power! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So, where should I start? Is there anyone local in NC nearby that I could start working with to check out the scene? I know there other in NC, such as Lynn, that would like to do the same but I could see us dropping a lot of money on a car barking up the wrong tree.
 
I have been wanting to approach the NASA guys (run out of Richmond) to see if there is a possibility that we could have our own group for track days, or run in races with the American Iron or the like. Maybe we should see how many of us are interested in track participation. And weither it would be test type days or actual races. Both of these are supported by NASA.
 
There are many things to consider when choosing a brand/type of car to play with on the track.
If you truly intend to do competitive "wheel to wheel" racing, such as SCCA, then you have some homework to do before making a decision on which car to choose.

Also, you should realise that you don't necassarily "need" to own a car in order to go through your drivers schools or even your first few race seasons, as many groups (and sometime individuals)will lease or rent you a car on a per weekend basis.
This is particularly a good idea for your schools, so that you can concentrate 100 percent on your driving and you can let the owncrew of the car take care of keeping the car ready to run.

Off the top of my head, here are a few things to consider when choosing a "track only" type racing car.

open wheel or closed wheel?
well, this is an emotional one for alot of people....
purists will say that the only way to go is with a "purpose built" racing car such as a formula atlantic,etc.
Well, the fastest of the open wheel cars, the formula atlantics are incredibly fast(heck they look like F1/or indy cars).....
...but they are also incredibly expensive to own and be competitive in, and such a car is probably not a good plan for a "newbie driver".
Other open wheel choices available are formula continetal, formula ford, formula ford 1600, and even the formula vee.
The atlantics and continentals use front and rear adjustable wings, so that adds to the fun (confusion) of car set up.
The club ford and 1600 cc cars are much more affordable, with a regionally vcompetitive example going for around $10-15k depending on condition and spares.
Before comiiting to any open wheel car, (especially if you are a "large" fellow) you need to see if you fit into the thing. Chassis vary alot and some cars seem to be made for midgets with tiny feet.

at the supposedly "most econommical end" of the open wheel cars is formula vee, which is the air cooled vw powered dinosaurs you see at the races. This class remains to be very competitive, but I personally think it is ridiculous to race a car with drum brakes, a vw beetle front end and spend upwards of $6k on a nationally competitive engine.
formula vee is weird, either people love them or they have no interest in them at all. I am of the latter opinion as the cars look goofy,and I see alot of vee drivers walk with a limp. (these guys tend to have ugly crashes)

GT class cars
this was kind of discussed in my first response. Basically a "GT" car is a steel roof, and production block and the rest is purpose built. You can buy "cheap"older GT cars, but they will be slow and expensive to maintain.

production class
production cars are mostly older british cars that have a cult following , but no one else on the planet seems to care about anymore. (I'm not trying to anger or offend anyone but this is the palin and simple truth. One reason the SCCA has a problem with the "greying" of their membership is because they spend soo much energy on old bugeye sprites and mgbs, that they are completely missing the boat when it comes to attracting new young members with their hondas and subarus.
I've been saying this for years, and am a former board member of my region.
Anyways, if you want to spend $25k building an mgb, to race against a bunch of other guys with mgbs, the production class is for you.....although they did finally start letting some asian and german cars like the vw rabbit into production.
Modification wise a production car is not too far from a GT car except it retains most of its original unibody, and still uses stock dimension brakes. Engine and suspensions are modified heavily.

sports racers
alot of options in this group.
you can run anything from a 2.0 liter ford powered car to something with a motorcyclle engine and a sequential six speed. This is where cars like the Dasio,come in. They kind of look like old can-am cars. they don't offer really anymore foot protection than an open wheel car and they do have a little more "body work"to them. You can go from a mild used s200 starting around $10k, up to a new radical or other bran for around $50k.

Then there's the SCCA's own "spec racer". These first came out in the 1980s and had little renault engine ins them. They were cheap to buy at the time and cheap to run,,,, and all the cars were "tecnically" the. They now use a ford engine and trans, and they are in the mid $20s for a new one I believe, and used one are usually around $15k.
Very popular class and fun little cars to drive. They are very tough little cars and can take a beating. They are pretty safe and you will always have someone to race with in this class. They even have a "pro" series with the cars.
The downside is that they (the SCCA) seem to screw the spec guys out of money every chance they get.
for example, the tires are branded with the word "spec" om them as are other parts. Of course you get to pay about 20 percent more than the non branded parts for the priviledge of getting to use them. They also charge the spec guys more for entry fees than everyone else, which in my opinion is extorsion!In the mid -div it costs usually 20 dollars more per entry to race a spec racer. 20 bucks doesn't sound like much until you add up how many times a year you will run, and then add that to the extra gouging you get on parts that you are only allowed to source through "scca enterprises". (sounds like a racquet to me)

"showroom stock"
uhhh, yeah,,,,, how about "showroom-in your dreams-stock",
I was also a nationally licensed scrutineer for about ten years, and one of my friends races in showroom stock.
Let's put it this way,,,,,, a few years back, he considered having his "stock" mitsu eclipse set up for the runoffs, by the Archer brothers as they were doing a bunch of them for the event. Now these guys wanted around $10k just to "set up" a showroom stock eclipse for the event!!!!
Oh, and guess what? I believe that cars prepped by them finished 1rst,2cnd,&3rd,,,,only to be disqualified for uhhh, bending the rules. Also a showroom stock car is no longer eligible after it is 5 years old, if I remember right. Good concept, but probably the most "sneaky" class there is.
If showroom stock truly is just that, then why would you take your own car to the national championships?
I brought up the idea years ago, to approach the auto manufacturers to bring enough cars for competitors to use for the event. Competitors would then only have to show up with thier own helmet, safety gear, and choice of tires. Since all of the cars are "supposedly" showroom stock, then there would be a lottery to see who would drive each car.
MYsteriously, none of the showroom stock guys liked my idea? hm,mmm.

American sedan
this one is for the mustang and firebird/camaro fans.
American sedan was originally alot of fun, and still can be regionally. You do need to think about this though.
Heavy v8 powered cars do tend to go through alot more fuel tires and brake pads than the little cars do, so yuor per weekend expenses on those things are a little higher.
A-sedan was really a great grassroots class until the SCCA decided to make it into a "national class". Basically this "upped the ante" overnite, as the big boys now got into them. You can no longer have $10k in an a sedan and be competitive,but you can still have fun regionally.

IT, improved touring
IT class is supposed to be the next step after showroom stock. You are allowed to modify the suspension, but the engine has to remain pretty stock. Alot of choices here in cars and type, as there are sub classes called ITS,ITA,ITB,ITC,ITD and even ITE 9which is what I run in at the moment) The letters basically designate engine size with ITS cars being the larger bore datsun z cars and 2cnd gen rx-7s, down to the little ford fiestas in ITC.
You can race in IT class for cheap, but it costs to be competitive. ...not too much though.
I have a friend who was national It champ at the AARC race for 5 years in a row. He races a VW gGTI in ITB, and I have seen himsell his champ winning car for $5k exactly as it came off the track! Building an It car yourself, you can easily spend $15 l or more, but you can buy a used ITA rx7 for around $5k for a decent one.
the big drawback to IT is it tends to be a "violent" class, as the numbers of participants are large, but some of them are total idiots.

which brings me to rule number one about a track car!
You track car needs to be "expendable".

#2, is it something you can easily repair yourself or will you be paying someone else to work onit?

#3 is it such a "unique" car that sourcing spare parts will be an issue?

#4 will it be a competitive car in the class?

#5 how much will I be spending on tires, brake pads, fuel, expendable per week end.

etc,etc, well, I better stop before I write an entire book.
I'm not trying to turn anyonne away from track time. I just seem to always see the plus side being talked about , and never the opposite.
These are just my opinions and observations over the last 15 years or so.
 
Ron,

A very good place to start would be to pick up a copy of "Grassroots Motorsports" Magazine. ( www.grassrootsmotorsports.com ). It will give you a good overview on a lot of the classes and what is happening. (It's kind of the bible of affordable racing).

Kevin
 
Ron, Two tracks I know of in the Carolinas area are:Carolina Motorsports Park ( 2.4 miles,14 turns) between Kersha & Camden SC.I have drven there in a Porche & a Vette on "Drive Education" weekends.You must own a Porche to belong to the Porche Club of America PCA.Club members get slots first.A lot of non-Porche car do run.They have 5 skill levels according to experience. You get 4 20 minute runs on Sat & 4 more on Sun.Controled passing. Also @ CMP is Turn One Motorsports. A company that offers Drvers Ed for novices & solo & test-n-tune. www.turn1motorsports.com www.turn1motorsports.com]web page[/url] Danville Va has VIR Virgina Internation Raceway. They also have club events. Either CARGUYs or NASA have drive your on lap days at tracks all around. If you want to drive door to door fairly cheep, NASA has a Cobra Spec class.Factory 5 spec kit,a spec engine,spec tires etc. On the track for about $20k.
 
You could always race Go Karts, there fun, reasonably cheap, and the engines are similar to bike engines. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I think the only place you will be able to race a GT 40 will be in vintage or private club events ie Porsche Club , Shelby club etc. The problem with the replicas is that they are very correct to the original cars built in the 60's. The rules have changed quite a bit since then. SCCA, Trans Am, ALMS etc. have tried to make the cars safer. One of the major obsticles you will run into is the rule that your feet must be behind the centerline of the front axle. That means some major redesigning. Some of the series do not allow sponson gas tanks and I don't think there is any way to build an SCCA legal roll cage for a 40 and still be able to get in and out.( NASCAR hatch?)
You can have a lot of FUN at these high speed road course events and usually have someone to race with. Besides,it's alot more fun to drive it home than sweeping it into a dumpster. Believe me.
 
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